Forehand Tutorial: How to Properly Lead with the Elbow

[BPC2000]

I believe most injuries are related to improper weightshift/kinetic sequence leading to poor deceleration/follow through, rather than injury happening in the lag/loading phase. The arm should be relatively looser on longer throws, not tighter. And you load against the lag/external rotation - you shouldn't be trying to externally rotate the arm, but resisting it somewhat to load like a spring. Obviously age and flexibility will play a role in how much lag happens, if you setup your backswing as I describe in the video with elbow forward and allowing the lower arm to swing back and supinated then lead with the hips, the arm lag will happen naturally. If your body is cold, then you should get your towel and warm up some practice swings before you throw.

Thanks for the extra explanation. The loaded spring analogy makes perfect sense, I'm going to use that, but at some point the shoulder/elbow/forearm goes from relatively passive (resisting external rotation) to some degree of activity as you enact/explode the muscles towards internal rotation. Is this where the gamble comes in? Can you activate the muscles when the shoulder is externally rotated and expect to avoid injury in DG? Or does the activation happen after the shoulder is no longer external rotated? My guess is that its happening to some degree in external rotation. I think it's still a heated debate over how long you can get away with it (especially in pitching). One side breaking down the science of limiting the strain on the shoulder and elbow, while the other side side arguing it should be avoided altogether.

Nolan Ryan is an interesting example because he is typically considered to be a freak of nature. Some people think he should be in The Smithsonian as well as the HOF. That being said, he was also known to be in peak physical condition throughout his career and did some things mechanically to make up for the strain of pitching. I think he was a combination of fitness, good mechanics, and superhuman physical makeup. NFL Running back Frank Gore and linebacker London Fletcher come to mind. Its mind boggling that these guys play/played the most punishing positions in the game and basically are/were barely missing time with injuries. The majority of pro level players are injured or worn out pretty quickly by comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBMubegFNKk

Rodgers looks like he's arching his back to compensate for the weight of the football. You see that in a lot of NFL QBs. I see it happening your tutorial. I see Jerm do it on drives. In the above video of Ricky his torso isnt arched , but tilted back past 90 degrees relative to his plant foot. I dont see it as much in Eagles pic.

Anyways I appreciate the time being put in by everyone here trying to break down the power potential mechanics. Its an ongoing project for me trying to maximize my FH. I should probably mention I'm 45, which is why I'm so concerned with injury. They happen quicker and take way longer to recover from now. Ive experienced that you actually can get some distance gains doing things that are pretty bad for you. Not so much worried about the pain of injury as much as the pain of the missed time it takes to recover. I don't want to miss any DG rounds if I dont have to.

 

[slowplastic]

Rodgers looks like he's arching his back to compensate for the weight of the football. You see that in a lot of NFL QBs. I see it happening your tutorial. I see Jerm do it on drives. In the above video of Ricky his torso isnt arched , but tilted back past 90 degrees relative to his plant foot. I dont see it as much in Eagles pic.

I don't know if that's an intended trajectory thing in the football situation? I see it as just a tilt of the athletic spiral. If you look at baseball batters, the spine is anywhere from vertical to tilted back like 10 degrees typically. I realize that the FH throw isn't exactly the same as the top hand in a baseball swing, but I'm guessing it's a trajectory/line thing rather than a compensation thing?

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks for the extra explanation. The loaded spring analogy makes perfect sense, I'm going to use that, but at some point the shoulder/elbow/forearm goes from relatively passive (resisting external rotation) to some degree of activity as you enact/explode the muscles towards internal rotation. Is this where the gamble comes in? Can you activate the muscles when the shoulder is externally rotated and expect to avoid injury in DG? Or does the activation happen after the shoulder is no longer external rotated? My guess is that its happening to some degree in external rotation. I think it's still a heated debate over how long you can get away with it (especially in pitching). One side breaking down the science of limiting the strain on the shoulder and elbow, while the other side side arguing it should be avoided altogether.

Nolan Ryan is an interesting example because he is typically considered to be a freak of nature. Some people think he should be in The Smithsonian as well as the HOF. That being said, he was also known to be in peak physical condition throughout his career and did some things mechanically to make up for the strain of pitching. I think he was a combination of fitness, good mechanics, and superhuman physical makeup. NFL Running back Frank Gore and linebacker London Fletcher come to mind. Its mind boggling that these guys play/played the most punishing positions in the game and basically are/were barely missing time with injuries. The majority of pro level players are injured or worn out pretty quickly by comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBMubegFNKk

Rodgers looks like he's arching his back to compensate for the weight of the football. You see that in a lot of NFL QBs. I see it happening your tutorial. I see Jerm do it on drives. In the above video of Ricky his torso isnt arched , but tilted back past 90 degrees relative to his plant foot. I dont see it as much in Eagles pic.

Anyways I appreciate the time being put in by everyone here trying to break down the power potential mechanics. Its an ongoing project for me trying to maximize my FH. I should probably mention I'm 45, which is why I'm so concerned with injury. They happen quicker and take way longer to recover from now. Ive experienced that you actually can get some distance gains doing things that are pretty bad for you. Not so much worried about the pain of injury as much as the pain of the missed time it takes to recover. I don't want to miss any DG rounds if I dont have to.

Lots of questions, let's see if I can answer them, not sure I'm 100% correct on this, but here's my hot take. External shoulder rotation happens from lag, the faster you rotate your torso, the more external rotation happens even though you resist it. So if you are resisting external rotation, you would be activating/loading your internal rotation muscles from the get go to create internal torque/spring. You don't really activate the shoulder into internal rotation, it effortlessly releases/springs from external rotation to neutral and the arm basically tightens up at the hit to transfer all the momentum to the disc preventing blow back from the disc and release it and is allowed to continue following through into internal rotation/pronation.

Thoracic extension improves your thoracic rotation and rotational speed thereby improving your ability to lag into external shoulder rotation.

Most professional athletes do pay a price with their body, but they are also putting a lot miles on their body. The ones that last the longest typically have the best mechanics and take care of their body the best off the field or perhaps just freak genetics. FWIW I'm 39 and never really had shoulder or elbow issues from FH, the caveat perhaps that I learned to pitch and QB effectively as a youngster. I suffered a catastrophic hip injury playing soccer in high school and didn't really play any land sports again or get into disc golf until almost 30, but I do also have a lot of wear and tear on my shoulder and elbow from years of competitive swimming in between and feel it when swimming now, but not when throwing.

 

[BPC2000]

You don't really activate the shoulder into internal rotation, it effortlessly releases/springs from external rotation to neutral and the arm basically tightens up at the hit to transfer all the momentum to the disc

Ok I'm going to test this in the field. I think ive been timing it all a little differently.

 

[runningDoc]

I personally think walter johnson is the best direct translation from baseball lower arm slot throwing motion to a disc golf side arm.

 

[BPC2000]

I don't know if that's an intended trajectory thing in the football situation? I see it as just a tilt of the athletic spiral. If you look at baseball batters, the spine is anywhere from vertical to tilted back like 10 degrees typically. I realize that the FH throw isn't exactly the same as the top hand in a baseball swing, but I'm guessing it's a trajectory/line thing rather than a compensation thing?

I think you your right, with the batter on the left driving the ball more parallel to the ground and the guy on the right has the home run trajectory....In throwing it's probably a combination of trajectory, thoracic extension, and what degree of external rotation of the shoulder the person is using. I'm guessing you cant get away with as much external rotation with a football because of the extra weight. It's hard to imagine a player throwing a football like the below pic.

I'm still testing SW22's theory of no acceleration of the arm in external rotation (if I have that right) but only acceleration of the arm after it goes past neutral and on to internal rotation. I do believe thats a good theory for power and injury avoidance. I'm inclined to believe there is extra power if you accelerate in external rotation but the risk of injury goes up. Why else is external rotation so great with baseball pitchers? I think they're gambling for more power.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm still testing SW22's theory of no acceleration of the arm in external rotation (if I have that right) but only acceleration of the arm after it goes past neutral and on to internal rotation. I do believe thats a good theory for power and injury avoidance. I'm inclined to believe there is extra power if you accelerate in external rotation but the risk of injury goes up. Why else is external rotation so great with baseball pitchers? I think they're gambling for more power.

To me, with an imperfect but fairly high distance forehand, it feels like the shoulder/upper arm is locked as he shows in the video. Like 170 degrees from left shoulder-right shoulder-right elbow. I try to keep this from backswing all the way to the hit, I'm not trying to allow any more external rotation of the shoulder, so I'm definitely resisting the load because going from backswing forward is trying to pull my arm back. I let my lower arm/elbow be pretty loose and the weight of the disc pulls my forearm back, probably like 45 degrees rather than the very extreme examples we see from baseball pitchers. The reason I don't get a farther load back is my planes aren't perfect, if my disc were on the correct plane from backswing to forward swing I think it would load farther back, rather than getting above my elbow to absorb some of that load.

I think a more fair comparison from baseball pitchers to a QB, would be to take a still shot of an infielder throwing to 1st. A pitcher has all the time he wants for his mechanics, and takes a massive stride with the height of the mound giving him a small advantage as well. This can let him get as much rotation and length as he can possibly get. Whereas an infielder and a QB are trying to make a very quick play from an athletic position, in a balancing act between power and speed.

 

[sidewinder22]

I personally think walter johnson is the best direct translation from baseball lower arm slot throwing motion to a disc golf side arm.

Whoah, that looks like my throw from 100 years ago. :hfive:

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you your right, with the batter on the left driving the ball more parallel to the ground and the guy on the right has the home run trajectory....In throwing it's probably a combination of trajectory, thoracic extension, and what degree of external rotation of the shoulder the person is using. I'm guessing you cant get away with as much external rotation with a football because of the extra weight. It's hard to imagine a player throwing a football like the below pic.

I'm still testing SW22's theory of no acceleration of the arm in external rotation (if I have that right) but only acceleration of the arm after it goes past neutral and on to internal rotation. I do believe thats a good theory for power and injury avoidance. I'm inclined to believe there is extra power if you accelerate in external rotation but the risk of injury goes up. Why else is external rotation so great with baseball pitchers? I think they're gambling for more power.

To me, with an imperfect but fairly high distance forehand, it feels like the shoulder/upper arm is locked as he shows in the video. Like 170 degrees from left shoulder-right shoulder-right elbow. I try to keep this from backswing all the way to the hit, I'm not trying to allow any more external rotation of the shoulder, so I'm definitely resisting the load because going from backswing forward is trying to pull my arm back. I let my lower arm/elbow be pretty loose and the weight of the disc pulls my forearm back, probably like 45 degrees rather than the very extreme examples we see from baseball pitchers. The reason I don't get a farther load back is my planes aren't perfect, if my disc were on the correct plane from backswing to forward swing I think it would load farther back, rather than getting above my elbow to absorb some of that load.

I think a more fair comparison from baseball pitchers to a QB, would be to take a still shot of an infielder throwing to 1st. A pitcher has all the time he wants for his mechanics, and takes a massive stride with the height of the mound giving him a small advantage as well. This can let him get as much rotation and length as he can possibly get. Whereas an infielder and a QB are trying to make a very quick play from an athletic position, in a balancing act between power and speed.

Right, QB's need to be quicker/snappier with a much heavier projectile, so they keep their core and arm tighter together. Pitchers can really step into the shot with a lot of momentum from the body and loosen up the arm and wind up more. IMO the only difference in disc golf and pitching is the plane we have to worry about spinning the disc on, so there's less winding up, plus the disc is often a little heavier.

You want your body to accelerate the arm like a slingshot targetward. Your body moves forward lagging the arm back(still leveraged forward) and the arm follows along. You then brace the front side, slowing your body's forward momentum, but accelerates your rotational momentum as the arm is whipped/sprung past the body.

 

[Spectacledbear]

This is a very interesting approach too the sidearm- but quite hard to implement. I always felt something was wrong with my throw and it's probably from the fact that my elbow were above my arm almost shoulder height- resulting in lots of torque and pain in the shoulder. Only now i notice how barsby and sexton really uses the lower body to sling the arm like a whip- my idea of it was like the arm does 80% of the work.

 

[RFrance]

Sorry if you already addressed this but I didn't see it. I'm sure, like all kinetic chains, after the thoracic extension the thoracic rotation starts from the ground up. Does the core become more actively engaged for FH after the rear instep weight shift or is it just pelvis turn? If there was a drill for the FH rotation, would it be a mirror image of the Butt Wipe drill for BH?

 

[sidewinder22]

Sorry if you already addressed this but I didn't see it. I'm sure, like all kinetic chains, after the thoracic extension the thoracic rotation starts from the ground up. Does the core become more actively engaged for FH after the rear instep weight shift or is it just pelvis turn? If there was a drill for the FH rotation, would it be a mirror image of the Butt Wipe drill for BH?

It's your core tightening/bracing for impact that rotates the torso out of x-factor lag. Same kind of principle as mirrored butt wipe, but the stance is more open so it would be hard to actually do it. Hershyzer is an actual pitching drill so it applies.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I feel like Wysocki's distance forehand has deteriorated just a bit as his backhand becomes more and more proficient.

I get the feeling this is a little intentional. It seems like he's forcing himself to really commit and see how far he can develop his backhand. That being said I'd bet dollars to donuts he's the best top tier distance thrower. He's forehand game is all about powerful and accurate forehand throws with overstable plastic and that's why he's such a surgeon with a Harp. Whether he's throwing a Harp, a felon or something faster his form is remarkably consistent. Even his standstill forehand shots are consistent with his run up throws.

 

[UhhNegative]

I get the feeling this is a little intentional. It seems like he's forcing himself to really commit and see how far he can develop his backhand. That being said I'd bet dollars to donuts he's the best top tier distance thrower. He's forehand game is all about powerful and accurate forehand throws with overstable plastic and that's why he's such a surgeon with a Harp. Whether he's throwing a Harp, a felon or something faster his form is remarkably consistent. Even his standstill forehand shots are consistent with his run up throws.

As far as pure distance goes, I doubt Wysocki is THE best. Check out Silver Latt or even Eagle McMahon probably throws further. No one can doubt Ricky's consistency though.

 

[Spectacledbear]

Do you guys focus on speed when you practice? Mainly the hips, i feel like something needs too be fast or else i can't get any distance. Im trying too keep everything locked together and not using my arm for power.

 

[sidewinder22]

Do you guys focus on speed when you practice? Mainly the hips, i feel like something needs too be fast or else i can't get any distance. Im trying too keep everything locked together and not using my arm for power.

Not really. Longer looser swing to gather more momentum/distance. The backswing is taken back all together, but there should be some lag as you make the transition forward.

 

[Spectacledbear]

Not really. Longer looser swing to gather more momentum/distance. The backswing is taken back all together, but there should be some lag as you make the transition forward.

Cool, i'll try to try to slow down. Tried the hammer drill with a heavy shoe and my body knew instinctively how to toss it using my arm as a sling, it just feels way different when im about too throw a disc. Thanks.

 

[slowplastic]

Cool, i'll try to try to slow down. Tried the hammer drill with a heavy shoe and my body knew instinctively how to toss it using my arm as a sling, it just feels way different when im about too throw a disc. Thanks.

Got to have a stack of discs in an open spot and not feel self conscious. Keep slinging them until it clicks. Lots of wounded duck flights and cut throwlers may happen, but you just have to concentrate on the feel instead of the results until it starts to line up right. Trying to maintain your old accuracy or hit point while hoping to make fundamental changes doesn't work well.

I do feel like I need to put at least 150' on it to get that sling feeling happening effortlessly, but you don't need to be throwing super hard.

 

[TaoTeFling]

I received a request to start a thread for more in depth DISCussion about this, so here it is...

Thanks for posting the video. I've got a semi-random question. It looked to me like you were standing a bit open to the target on these throws, kind of similar to the photo I've attached here. Is that right?

I usually stand square to the target when I throw FH but think I may experiment with opening up a bit. Thanks.

 

[sidewinder22]

Thanks for posting the video. I've got a semi-random question. It looked to me like you were standing a bit open to the target on these throws, kind of similar to the photo I've attached here. Is that right?

I usually stand square to the target when I throw FH but think I may experiment with opening up a bit. Thanks.

I usually setup sideways just like I'm pitching and stride into a slightly open stance.