Is it unethical for a disc golf store owner

[Declarkus]

It may be "greedy" to some, but if the true market value on a disc is higher than retail, why in the world would someone not sell it for its value, store owner or not..?

I had a boss in the food industry that tried to argue that giving a 10% firefighter discount on top of a free drink coupon was "unethical." I found it to be a silly use of the word, but I guess it technically fits the definition of ethical:

"Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession."

It was a clever attempt to instill a feeling of guilt concerning my actions, but his argument was based on ethics, not morals. So based on the corporate guidelines about combining discounts (also stated on the coupon), I was, in fact, acting unethically.

This is a weird way of decribing the nature of the concept, but it represents the other side of the ethical argument. Someone, like a manufacturer or competitor, could consider a discount on an item with a higher value an "unethical" discount. However, without some contractual obligation, it is up to the seller to determine a code of conduct, as well as an asking price for goods, which are both often dictated by market demands.

 

[smarkquart]

I simply don't see where greed enters into this discussion. Hypocrisy on the part of those who complain about the practice (when they know damned well they'd do the same thing if in the store owners position, or simply had those discs themselves) perhaps.

I believe the feelings that this is a greedy move is based upon that this store has done things a certain way for a long time, whereas it might have been some of the employees stashing away the hottest items for themselves as they unloaded the boxes and not the owner. The employees who did this were often doing it for their personal purchases; flipping for a profit was strongly discouraged and may even had an unspoken rule of being a fireable offense.

Regardless, store police shifted recently. The overall stock is still tremendous, but certain colors and dyes have seemingly become more bland. Before when some of the employees may have stashed away a few things, it was so sporadically done that it may not have impacted the overall stock of hot and cool items (if 50 limited edition items came in, how would the consumer know that 3-4 were pulled aside?). The difference now is that everyone knows that the hot items are being pulled out for the purpose of flipping, and it is being done by a store owner that for years and years seemed hands off of the inventory. Before he was willing to do anything, willing to bend over backwards, to get business in the store, but now the shift is towards sustaining the business and making it profitable.

 

[Timber]

Perhaps the store owner will give you a discount on the premium auction disc if you offer him $2 each, above retail, for all 19 of his 179 gram dull blue dx sharks with smeared iridescent stamps that have been in his bins since 1994.

 

[nevets4433]

I congratulate that shop owner on his use of capitalism to grow his business

 

[Moose33]

It seems crappy at face value but if it keeps the disc stores in the black with the lights on good on them .

At the East meets West event we had all Orange or White Veins and the prize disc was a purple with a gold crinkle stamp, I had people offer me the price of the players pack again just to get that one.

I didn't do it, but for a store owner if someone is willing to pay it, why not?

 

[mattc]

As soon as a retailer buys those discs from the manufacturer/wholesaler, they become the retailers discs.
If you had a giant box of plastic show up at your door, don't tell me you wouldn't want to sort through them and keep the best ones separate.

 

[Ranger Rick]

Welcome to the world of 21st Century Capitalism. Most brick and mortar stores are mom and pop shops, and run on a shoestring, mostly for the love of the game. If they have to sell online to keep the doors open, good on them. Disc Golf is a fringe sport, and even the best stores would struggle to keep the lights on if it wasn't for the web. Beside, I have a feeling that the OP was looking to buy low and sell high himself, but was stymied in his effort. Maybe we should be mad at non-shop owners who over-inflate prices because certain discs are trending higher. Ms. Pott, meet Mr. Kettle!

 

[Ken3692]

So the other day I was bored (I mean working productively), and I threw up one of our Glow 30th Anniversary Aviars with a cool stamp on DDGA just to see what happened. I think we made like, $1 profit over just selling it normally.

Whenever we get shipments from companies and we're sorting them, we'll sometimes pull out really cool looking ones for the pinks/blacks/nat beauties on our site, for about $1 or $2 more just because they're cool. People like them, and I mean, I'd definitely pay that for a really cool swirly champion disc for instance.

We've played around with the idea of auctioning stuff, getting the idea from the Dynamic. In the long run, it was really just a little extra penny change for us. Sure the argument, "If you made a ton of money, would you have continued...?" could pop up, but honestly I don't really think we'd do so. None of us here really want to devote time spending extra time to make postings and bump it and keep track of it and research worth, when our usual system works fine for us.

It's definitely not like we're rolling in money and are rich enough to be throwing gold-plated first run Firebirds or anything, btw. Nor do we want to be (Rich anyway, not throwing gold plated discs).

Pretty often when I look at the orders for the day and what's sold, it's interesting as sometimes we'll see the person selling the exact discs 2-3 days later cause we gave them a cool stamp or a cool x-out or it was a limited edition run. Do we get jealous at all, since we could have done the same? No of course not. We're comfortable and happy with what we do, so no need for us to do more.

 

[Discette]

to sell the coolest/rare discs they receive from in their huge orders, on auction sites such as ebay, or the fb dollar disc auction page?

What's everyone's thoughts on this greed fueled activity?

Problem? Just the store owner making a quick extra stack of cash? Business as usual?

What's your stance on the issue?

Let's remove your bias (that profits are the result of greed) and rewrite the question.

What are everyone's thoughts on capitalism? or
What are everyone's thoughts on business owners making a profit?

A businessman should not have to defend making a profit from a legal enterprise. If a retailer can earn more money selling an item online than through a traditional retail setting, why is that a bad thing? Perhaps businesses should just sell stuff at wholesale and then no one will make any money through these horrible "greed fueled activities"!!!!


Which reminds me of Maceman and the bucket crabs. It sounds like many folks in the Twin Cities been doing this to their promoters and retailers this past year.

 

[Timeetyo]

This thread is just silly. No idea why anyone would be upset at pulling out the "cool" discs and selling them at market value.

And along this line - I actually PREFER that MST does this with the black/pink/natural beauties. I have no problem paying an extra buck or 2 to get that pretty disc.

So the other day I was bored (I mean working productively), and I threw up one of our Glow 30th Anniversary Aviars with a cool stamp on DDGA just to see what happened. I think we made like, $1 profit over just selling it normally.

Whenever we get shipments from companies and we're sorting them, we'll sometimes pull out really cool looking ones for the pinks/blacks/nat beauties on our site, for about $1 or $2 more just because they're cool. People like them, and I mean, I'd definitely pay that for a really cool swirly champion disc for instance.

We've played around with the idea of auctioning stuff, getting the idea from the Dynamic. In the long run, it was really just a little extra penny change for us. Sure the argument, "If you made a ton of money, would you have continued...?" could pop up, but honestly I don't really think we'd do so. None of us here really want to devote time spending extra time to make postings and bump it and keep track of it and research worth, when our usual system works fine for us.

It's definitely not like we're rolling in money and are rich enough to be throwing gold-plated first run Firebirds or anything, btw. Nor do we want to be (Rich anyway, not throwing gold plated discs).

Pretty often when I look at the orders for the day and what's sold, it's interesting as sometimes we'll see the person selling the exact discs 2-3 days later cause we gave them a cool stamp or a cool x-out or it was a limited edition run. Do we get jealous at all, since we could have done the same? No of course not. We're comfortable and happy with what we do, so no need for us to do more.

 

[Discette]

For those that are not familiar, here is Maceman's letter from September 2008.

From www.maceman.com :

The Future and all that other stuff

At this point in time I have made the decision to discontinue operation of The North Texas Series. I will continue to run some of the events that I have run in the past, but the number will be down significantly from years past.

I will no longer be working in Disc Golf as a means of support effective immediately. I will be doing some stage work again, as well as exploring other business opportunities. I have put myself second for far too long and that will not continue. I will split my time in a manner that is more beneficial to me from now on.

Thanks to all that have supported me, and gone the distance with and for me. I am truly grateful and I can't thank you enough. Anyone who put me up or set me up with a friend to stay with along the way, I wish I had made a list so I could send you a thank you letter. But those of you who really know me know I would not get around to it. So I will thank you here. I could not have done all of the things I have done in the last 14+ years without your help, thank you very much. The countless friendships and good times that have come my way through out all of this are the great reward that I will always cherish. Thank you all so much.

I will continue to run PIO (January), Cedar Hill (post Super Bowl), Z Boaz Open (late April), A to Z Doubles (late Feb or early March, in a similar time frame as other doubles events in TX), and Waco Charity Open (late May or early June). There will not be a Big Show series again any time soon.

In the future I will run these events in very different manner, with a completely different approach. That approach will be based firmly in reality. You want a big event? You want to receive the benefits of a big event? You have to pay for it. I am certianly not going to pay for it any more. Nor will I go out and beg people in the local community to give us money because our sport is so cool and we are even cooler than that. You want to see a big event than buy a fundraiser disc. You want to see an even bigger event than help me sell some fundraisers in your neighborhood or town. You want more? Are you a top player? Than allow me to sell a round, a half day, or a full day with you on and around the course. It only makes sense. You want more than do more. I currently have around 40 CFR Destroyers that I will ship for $25 ea, that money will go to PIO and generate more support for subsequent events. Email me [email protected]

You may not want to hear this, but we are not that cool and we are not going to get there any time soon. We do not have any power in the advertising market, and we are not capable of generating anywhere near the attention necessary to pull down the sponsorship that many of us demand. I am going to let you in on a secret, sponsorship is advertising. Advertising is done to generate business, not to make beggars happy.

Unfortunately we are not that good at supporting our sponsors, and we are seen as a group that receives but rarely gives in return. Besides all of that we are just us, no spectators' just players. We aren't even drawing a crowd that is large enough to pull down the dream sponsor money at the biggest and greatest event in the game why would the XYZ Open suddenly be the one to make it happen?

This sport has a lot of good people that have the bad habit of talking really loud about a topic they have little to no knowledge of. It is amazing how many people there are in this game that know more about running a business and or events than the person that actually does it. Then lets throw in some unrealistic expectations and demands on top of it all. The end result is a person giving it his all, and the reward is a sound beating in one form or fashion from the main beneficiaries. Not to mention the bonus end reward, the reputation that comes from all the kind words of all the winners that hauled home the inadequate payout at the end.

Have you ever heard of the bucket crab mentality? If you take one crab and a bucket, put the crab in the bucket. He can easily reach the top and pull himself up and over the edge to freedom. But if you put a few crabs in the bucket, the one on top can easily reach up and pull himself over the edge to freedom. The problem is that the other crabs see the one "getting ahead of them" and they reach up and grab the crab and try to pull themselves up as well only to pull the first crab back down on top of them again.

Unfortunately disc golfers are a lot like bucket crabs. The local promoter is the first crab, and the players are the other crabs in the bucket. Most bucket crabs don't know or even care what is going on. But there's that one super sleuth crab that has appointed himself as the local watch crab. He's on the job keeping anyone from "getting rich" or gaining freedom, and if there is the hint of progress or something appears slightly out of line he will be on the scene. But not really, he will be out there somewhere talking really loud, but never taking the time to do all of the home work. Preaching in his outside voice about the perceived injustice but never really doing a complete investigation on the situation. Gathering all the facts "I need" as proof, and then pushing through the conviction without a trial and moving straight to the punishment.

If that local promoter isn't entitled to anything for his efforts, why should he do the work? Who among you will work this week for free? I know the answer is a resounding no from all, so why then should this or any local or national promoter do any of this for you with no pay? It is work, it takes up time, and it should be rewarded. The thing that is sad is that it goes on in every town in every state in the game. The names are different but the game is the same.

In case you didn't read the paragraph above I ask again, if you are not willing to work this week for free, why should your local disc golf promoter work for you for free????

Wake up you local promoters. Your merch has a value and in order for the game to move forward and you to succeed you need to realize that value. Otherwise we are just moving the same money around over and over again. All of the basic equipment is so cheap even at full retail compared to other sports equipment. It is so counterproductive to try and work a promoter for a dollar or two on a disc price, when that is the actual growth of the sport.

This is all so simple and so stupid all at the same time. Here are my recommendations as of September 2008.

Players wise up and enjoy what you have. Stop beating on your local promoter unless you are willing to do what they are doing, and if so you must do it better than the person before you or why get rid of them dumb ass? You keep throwing stones at that guy or gall doing all the work for you, and they will go away after they get hit enough times. Then who will you have to throw stones at???

Promoters take the time and learn what you are doing. You and the game really need to get the full value from your products; it is the only thing that the economy of the game can count on year after year. You are not Sam Walton, and the sport is not Wal-Mart. We are all the sport has, no sponsor is going to come along anytime soon and take us to the next level. We have to wise up and become real business people or get out. If your not swimming your treading water and you just as well get out of the pool. DO something original, gain an edge and compete with that. Don't hide behind a cut rate price because you aren't really bringing anything to the plate in the first place. Don't exist in this business just to rape the market and the game, do it some good or move on.

You can agree with me or disagree I don't care and I wasn't asking. I am telling you what I think and how I feel. Disc Golf used to be my passion. That was taken away little by little over time, and now I don't know what to say. I feel like I have been robbed in many ways. I can't afford to give my life away for free any more.

You can send me an email or we can discuss any or all of this on the discussion board here on maceman.com when I get around to it. [email protected]

To those of you who have gone out of your way to undermine me and my efforts, you can fill in the blanks _ _ _ _ _ _ _.

Sincerely
Brian Mace

And if you good folks in Minnesota don't recognize your selves in Maceman's dialogue. One word comes to mind: Snelsoning. Proof that bucket crabs are still around and that they are cannibals that won't hesitate to eat their own.

 

[AndyJB]

Wow. Powerful, well written statements.

 

[Pwingles]

Having trouble seeing how this is an issue of ethics.

They paid for the discs, for the purposes of re selling for profit. Sounds like thats what theyre doing in this scenario.

 

[MacDaddy]

to sell the coolest/rare discs they receive from in their huge orders, on auction sites such as ebay, or the fb dollar disc auction page?

What's everyone's thoughts on this greed fueled activity?

Problem? Just the store owner making a quick extra stack of cash? Business as usual?

What's your stance on the issue?

Are you kidding me? Is this even a real question? Have you ever sold something for more than you paid for it? :doh:

 

[bballr4567]

For those that are not familiar, here is Maceman's letter from September 2008.








And if you good folks in Minnesota don't recognize your selves in Maceman's dialogue. One word comes to mind: Snelsoning. Proof that bucket crabs are still around and that they are cannibals that won't hesitate to eat their own.

That's still true today and I see it from all aspects, new guys joining the sport and the guys that have played for decades starting their own league because someone had a broken relationship. :wall:

 

[sumo21]

I liken it to collecting sports cards, which is what I do. I collect my favorite players and I like to see what other cool cards and/or technologies that are being incorporated into the cards. However, since I am a student and don't have a lot of money to splurge on luxury items. I also know that if that shopus owner wants to break open a box of really expensive cards, that is their choice and their money. If they want to mark it up and sell it, AGAIN, their choice, their money.

Even simpler, do you want to win a million dollars? Then pony up your money and buy a lotto ticket. It's the chance you're taking to have a shot at winning. It's the shop owners risk of buying the discs because they may or may not sell them. You and I are no different in that if we had the resources, both of us would be buying these discs and no pun intended, flipping them for a profit.

 

[Smigles]

Stores usually try to make profit. The owner OWNS the merchandise he is selling (at least i hope so...). It would be unethical to tell him how to run his business.

 

[Hampstead]

A few thoughts

It is difficult for a brick and mortar store to remain in business when a lot of their potential local customers would rather shop online than support the local shop.

With disc golf being a seasonal sport for a lot of people, business slows down when the weather changes.

Manufacturers don't make it easy on the little guy when they continue to pump out new discs every other week and insist that you order 30, 40 or however many discs as a minimum per order.

In order to pay the bills and stay in business, I have absolutely no problem with shops doing what they must, even if that means cherry picking the good stuff to resell on ebay or other auction sites.

That said, I do have a problem if a retailer raises prices in store on select items ie: natural beauties, FAF pearly Firebirds, etc. If they sell Champ or Star plastic at a set rate, it seems shady to selectively change the rate on certain discs. However, if they want to raise the price to sell online, more power to them.


(maybe shady isn't the right word, but until I can think of a better one, that's what I'm going with)

 

[Cgkdisc]

I don't understand why manufacturers don't make "all good stuff"? They certainly know what will be popular. You don't see certain sleeves of production golf balls or tennis balls sold at auction.

 

[discguy42]

Disc golf Center marks up the price on discs they deem "unique" and I have paid a little extra to buy said discs before.

I used to be into comic books and have paid well for certain issues and have also sold some for a sweet profit as well that I paid cover price for. I have sold a Captain America comic that had a cover price of .16 cents for $50...am I evil for profiting off of Ol' Cap? Hopefully he can support my application of capitalism here in America!

This day and age I would not fault a brick and mortar store to get maximum profit off an item, especially if it helps the bottom line and keeps the door open for you to stop in and grab a disc in real-time instead of buying off the internet. He is just giving the web the "finger" and getting a little of his lost pie back.

I could not imagine trying to support a family off of a Disc Golf specialty store. Just think of how many discs you will have to move to just pay rent? My cost on a DX disc is $5, Champ and Star is $9, and shipping is not free. Depending on your order volume, my shipping costs are like .30 cents per disc on a 25/30 disc order.