Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter

[smyith]

wow... can I get the last 10 minute of my life back?

WHO REALLY CARES? I've been reading DGCR religiously now for a few weeks and this is by far the most worthless thread to date... and there are plenty of other nonsensical threads out there.

thanks for your wonderful contribution. bye now.

 

[scarpfish]

The PDGA may make standards for our equipment, but the ugly reality is that the majority of discs bought are used for proceedings outside of PDGA events.

The majority of players who buy those discs would rather have affordable equipment, some degree of which may not be compliant than they would want to pay extra to ensure manufacturers make quality control changes to their molding processes to ensure all discs that make it out of the factory are compliant. As long as this aspect of our game remains, and it likely will for years, if not forever, manufacturers aren't going to be under much pressure to change the status quo.

 

[R-Intermediate]

10mins huh? Would more pictures livin it up for you?

 

[Halcón]

An increase in disc price has been implied several times in this thread. What does compliance have to do with manufacturing costs?

 

[scarpfish]

An increase in disc price has been implied several times in this thread. What does compliance have to do with manufacturing costs?

It costs money to make discs. To impart quality control measures to ensure each specimen that makes it out of the factory legal, its either going to require some pricey R&D to find a way to make mold weights more precise and within compliance standards, or mean simply assuming a few eggs out of every batch are going to be rotten and will have to be destroyed. Simply stamping them as X-outs won't cut it.

In either case, that cost is going to have to passed on to the consumer.

 

[JeremyKShort]

You want an way way to have the rules indorsed?
Her is my take!!!!
1. The flex standard should be eliminated. If it is for safety there had better be a good set of studies or it is fodder for lawyers.
2. The Max weight standard should have a qualifying weight and a field weight that is about 2g more than the qualifying weight. This way the manufactures have a target to hit when a new disk is made or during a audit and the TDs don't have to have a $3000 ISO certified balance to put on a tournament.

I think the weight standard is something that could be easily enforced by the manufacturers, if the PDGA really wanted to crack down on it. They have to show that they don't make discs out of the weight range to mark anything as PDGA approved. Yes, a lot of casual players don't care if it's approved, but there are enough tourny players that no one will want to lose that business.

I also agree on a 2g margin of error for testing in the field. Then TD's can just buy a $25 postal scale and test discs, if the need ever comes.

The flex standard is a tricky one. It can't really be enforced without possibly ruining the disc. Only the more flexible discs will ever survive the test, and none of them will ever need to be tested. And winter temperatures throw another kink into it.

 

[Halcón]

It costs money to make discs?

I don't believe it would be very difficult, or require as much R & D as you assume. Granted, I'm not in the industry. Perhaps someone with more expertise could chime in.

I think at this point it's not that the manufacturers don't have the capabilities to be precise. It's that they know they don't have to be because the rules are so lax.

 

[teemkey]

I think at this point it's not that the manufacturers don't have the capabilities to be precise

Apparently, it's a rare disc I scale, and the scaled weight matches the manufacturer's marked weight. Discraft doesn't even try a precise weight ...

 

[scarpfish]

It costs money to make discs?

I don't believe it would be very difficult, or require as much R & D as you assume. Granted, I'm not in the industry. Perhaps someone with more expertise could chime in.

Overweight molds have been a contentious topic for some time. If correcting the problem were that simple, I can assure you it would be done by now.

I think at this point it's not that the manufacturers don't have the capabilities to be precise. It's that they know they don't have to be because the rules are so lax.

The rules aren't lax. Much like a posted speed limit, they're pretty concrete and well stated. Its the enforcement of those rules that are lax.

Just as the police don't have the resources to catch everyone doing 63 in a 60 zone, the PDGA doesn't have the resources to make the manufacturers stop putting discs on the market that come out of the factory 2g over their weight limit. And considering the overwhelming majority of disc golfers don't play tournaments, (much less sanctioned tournaments), the PDGA needs manufacturers more than manufacturers need the PDGA.

 

[DanJon]

I'm sure the quality control is not very sophistocated and consistent in these small manufacturers so out of standard products come out all the time. There are still "illegal" ball golf clubs and balls that are mass produced and targeted to "recreational" players that are not legal in sanctioned competitive play. Golf discs are similar. Remember the Ninja? Purposely made illegal and can't be used in sanctioned tournies. The Turbo Putt and the Wheel are now illegal.

So, the other side of the coin is the recreational products for recreational players are going to be out there, and the PDGA is not equipped to inspect players discs, so it has been designed as a players orginazation and the rules are for self governing. WE the golfers are responsible for what we use in sanctioned play. Get a digital scale.

I feel like this was lost amongst the childish bickering from some parties. You conveniently ignore common sense posts like these to continue on your self-important tirades.

If anyone has a reason to be anti PDGA its me. So ****ing relax. Chuck, I guarantee, is smarter than you, and is privy to more legality issues and concerns than you could ever bother to deal with.

In conclusion: SHUT UP.

 

[wake911]

By this standard nobody can say that any one disc is too stiff. ex during a round one player can't call a standard violation because of stiffness because there has to be 3 discs to do so.

Interesting, so NEVER carry 3 "identical" discs with you, or it could fail the flex test.

wow... can I get the last 10 minute of my life back?

WHO REALLY CARES? I've been reading DGCR religiously now for a few weeks and this is by far the most worthless thread to date... and there are plenty of other nonsensical threads out there.

You obviously don't play tournaments, or you would care about this to some degree. I buy discs from resellers of factory manufactured discs. These discs state they are PDGA approved. If they end up being to stiff or overweight, I could be DQ'd from a tournament.

The PDGA states it is my job, to confirm every disc I use is legal for use. Yet I have ZERO background, training, tools to do this. I bought a cheap digital scale to weigh my discs. I am now out a lot of money in discs I cannot use in PDGA tournaments because they are overweight. This isn't like Speed Limits where you might get caught by a random cop. No, this would be you speed, and the car next to you pulls you over and calls the cops until your speed is tested, but your car from the factory has no speedometer. You were supposed to install one yourself so you could confirm you were legal. That's BS.

I bought approved discs, that a manufacturer made overweight. ALL of them overweight. I trusted this manufacturer's word that these were legal. I weighed it later, after loving the disc, and find its overweight, and i can't get a replacement that's in weight. That is BS.

If the manufacturer would mark overweight discs as overweight, and legal discs as legal, then it would be on us to buy legal, or buy illiegal. But when they mark EVERYTHING as legal, how the hell are we supposed to know? Aren't they the professional disc molder? I sit at a desk all day, i'm not in quality control or manufacturing.

I appreciate Chuck's comments in the thread, but I still can't believe the PDGA puts so much of this BS on the player. Oh wait, they put ALL the owning of the accuracy of the manufacturer on the player. It really turns me off from even trying to play PDGA tournaments.

The rule should be changed. There should be manufacturers rules, and that should be enforced however those in charge see fit.

Then there should be "competition rules" where it states "If the disc is marked as approved by the manufacturer, it is approved for use in PDGA sanctioned ournaments. Exclusions include discs specifically stated as Illegal by the PDGA (turbo putt, etc), discs with holes in the flight plate, etc."

This would allow you to flatten your disc, pop top you disc, fix dings, use your super stiff wizard, slightly over weight wizard, destroyer, aviar, firebird, whatever.

If the PDGA or anyone else wanted to truly crack down on disc legality, they would go after the manufacturer. But taking it out on the player is stupid and quite frustrating as a player who wants to be legal, and has had to waste money replacing illegal discs that were bought 100% legally, with no modifications. It's BS that discs can say "PDGA Approved" and they in fact aren't. But somehow that is my fault for buying it?

/rant done with this thread, i limit myself to one post in each of these, unless i have to clarify anything to a direct response.

 

[Halcón]

Scarpfish, that's what I meant. Enforcement is lax. Sorry, half asleep while I was posting.

And your point about the PDGA needing manufacturers is spot on.

 

[Halcón]

^^^Wake. LOL. "They should have a rule that says anything goes" is basically what you're saying.

 

[tbird888]

Many golf courses are in public parks.

But they're on dedicated land. You're not going to find a familiy camping/having a picnic in one of the fairways on a golf course. You also won't find a wedding party taking photos.

I guess private vs public was a bad argument. Perhaps dedicated vs multi-use?

 

[tbird888]

I think the weight standard is something that could be easily enforced by the manufacturers, if the PDGA really wanted to crack down on it. They have to show that they don't make discs out of the weight range to mark anything as PDGA approved. Yes, a lot of casual players don't care if it's approved, but there are enough tourny players that no one will want to lose that business...

I think you're underestimating how few competitive players there are vs casual disc golfers. Competitive golfers are a drop in the bucket comparatively.

 

[wake911]

^^^Wake. LOL. "They should have a rule that says anything goes" is basically what you're saying.

If they don't do enforcement at the manufacturer level, and allow manufacturers to put "pdga approved" on discs whether they are or not, then yes, anything should go from the players side. if the manufacturer weighed and marked EACH disc weight to the .1, then we'd be more apt to be able to buy based on actual weight legality, same with flex if they wanted to. They don't but they still put DQ risk on us, the players instead......damnit, i said i was done. :doh:

 

[jsc430]

You want an way way to have the rules indorsed?
Her is my take!!!!
1. The flex standard should be eliminated. If it is for safety there had better be a good set of studies or it is fodder for lawyers.
2. The Max weight standard should have a qualifying weight and a field weight that is about 2g more than the qualifying weight. This way the manufactures have a target to hit when a new disk is made or during a audit and the TDs don't have to have a $3000 ISO certified balance to put on a tournament.

I'm sorry dude, but you have no credibility when you use the word "disk" on a DISC golf website.

 

[Djmutiny]

I would suggest that it is more than a little misleading for discs to be sold to consumers as a "PDGA approved" mold, when in reality the disc itself needs to be individually weighed and flex tested to actually comply with the listed rules from the PDGA. One or the other needs to change. How much cost would there actually be to the PDGA to simply fine companies that produced "approved" discs that didn't comply with the rules? Or eliminate the rules. I feel it is insulting for the PDGA to try to mitigate their legal responsibilities by placing the onus of enforcement on an untrained member of their organization.

 

[bikinjack]

There is a simple solution to this issue. And a money making one at that. It's too simple really, which is why it probably wouldn't work.

Make it a premium for a disc to be "PDGA Approved". Manufacturers would have to pay the org a fee for each disc stamped or advertised as "PDGA Approved". In turn they could charge a premium price for a premium product. Provide some (financial) consequence for the manufacturer who sells a disc that's marked as approved, but fails the test, such as not being able to sell for the premium price (in other words, not being able to stamp anything approved) for a specified time.

 

[nolangherity]

*keeps playing unsanctioned events*