Nikko LoCastro intimidating a PDGA official at European Open '22

[Three Putt]

Other "issues"? OBs and mandos while imperfect don't seem to be causing a lot of conflict.

Was it last year that PP clearly missed a mando at World's and nobody wanted to call it?

 

[ChrisWoj]

Who will be disc golf's Lady Byng?

Do we give it to a touring pro? The Nate Doss Trophy? He's probably the World Champ that comes to mind as the most famously "nice" (other guys are nice, but that's kinda at the core of what I know about him - and I've been lucky enough to have met him a few times)

Do we give it to some regional name that some people might know but it might require a story or something to explain how great it is? The LaRon Harris Trophy? Like I always heard great things about LaRon Harris, just to throw a random name from another area that I literally have no personal experience with.

 

[txmxer]

Was it last year that PP clearly missed a mando at World's and nobody wanted to call it?

I remember there was an issue, but I don't remember the details. Was it called? Didn't Paige question it herself and nobody could second it?

That was a terribly designed mando with poles and rope IIRC--my impression is it was difficult to judge a close call from the tee box.

So, yeah, there are issues that need to be better. That one was a design issue as much as anything IMO.

 

[_MTL_]

I guess the fuzzy math part for me is that the 19 stops. Does that include DGPT events? If so, why would the PDGA be on the hook for that? Wouldn't DGPT have to cover that?

The PDGA and DGPT are partners, both in practice and financially.

 

[_MTL_]

Do we give it to a touring pro? The Nate Doss Trophy? He's probably the World Champ that comes to mind as the most famously "nice" (other guys are nice, but that's kinda at the core of what I know about him - and I've been lucky enough to have met him a few times)

Do we give it to some regional name that some people might know but it might require a story or something to explain how great it is? The LaRon Harris Trophy? Like I always heard great things about LaRon Harris, just to throw a random name from another area that I literally have no personal experience with.

PDGA already has a sportsman of the year award.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Let's explore this from a fiscal standpoint.

First off, every card is simply not efficient. Every hole is the best option.

Currently at pro tour events there are two types of officials - full time PDGA staff members and contracted officials. My job description and the four of us on the competition team, well marshalling is part of our gig. Written in our job descriptions. So our salary covers over compensation.

There's 4 of us, so if we have one per hole, we need 14 people. This also assumes that the course is 18 holes (De La isn't) and the event only has one course being played at the same time (Ledgestone currently doesn't).

Assuming we want quality, the officials cannot be volunteers. Most areas, if not all areas, simply don't have 14 people who have run high level events that have the knowledge of all the nuances of marshaling and these big events. Even a TD who has run hundreds of A tiers still would need training as rules are different in ES and Majors. Also, A salary holds our contractors accountable. I know what the contacted officials make per day and am not going to disclose, but let's assume $10 / hour for the sake of simple math. 12 hour day, so $120 a day. Assuming 18 holes and 1 course, we are now at $1,680 in expenses per day.

Pro tour events are 3 days, sometimes 4. Majors are 4 days, sometimes 5. So let's say 4 days on average. $6,720 per event for 14 officials. But with extra holes and multiple courses, that figure is probably $10,000.

Since we know we can't get 14 people locally, we have to bring them in. When you are asked to travel for work do you sleep on someone's couch? Nope, hotel. Well, you also have to get there at earliest a day earlier to learn the event rules and the hole you are officiating. You also likely are learning the entire course in case you need to fill in for someone else.

A hotel is about $150 a night, $175 with taxes and fees. 18 people (remember, the four of us full timers aren't factored into the equation above, but would be for this) at 5 nights = $15,750.

Total investment thus far = $25,750

Now, you got to get there. Airfare and a rental car for a week is probably about $1500 a person. 18 people = $27,000

Total investment thus far = $52,750

And now we get into meal stipends. This averages about $60-70 a day, depending on where you are going. So we will say $65. 18 people, 5 days = $5,850

Total investment per event to have an official on every card = $58,600

There are 19 stops on elite and majors. That means this idea would cost $1,113,400.

Where does this come from?!? The entire PDGA Budget was $5,170,534 and this includes EVERYTHING the PDGA does.

Added cash? The only events with more than $52K added so far are Champions Cup, Ledgestone and European Open.

I agree that 18 officials is the future. But we aren't even remotely close and it's simply ill-informed to suggest otherwise.

One thing I am on board with is the idea of dragging some plans over from traditional golf. They've been doing this sort of competition for a very long time and they eventually figured a few things out. BGC is a ****ing blithering idiot, but he's right about that much - if literally nothing else in his ramblings is coherent.

One of the plans I appreciate is having a few holes per round that are points of emphasis. If a card is out of position at that point, a "time official" follows them until a set hole or until they're back in position. The investment is much smaller, especially if you note that I'm not asking for someone that is a Marshal-Level-Rules-Expert. I would say it should be someone that can pass an Officials Exam, and can take time out for a short seminar on calling time violations specifically in a consistent manner. These officials will be empowered to *only* call or participate in calls regarding time violations (this is to head off players worried that someone else being slow puts them under additional scrutiny for other violations from a non-player).

At most you need 6 people. Those 6 people do not need to be trucked from stop to stop, they can be local. They only need to be trained on making sure that they are calling time violations in a consistent manner. Usually you shouldn't need 6 people, and if you need more than 6 people - you've probably got an issue with the course and not the players.

One thing that is certain: the population of players that participate in the tour is becoming more focused even as the general disc golf population grows. A separate subset of the rules can be established for the Pro Tour, and will result in less confusion it ever would have before, given the player base using those rules is becoming ever more separated from the general competitive disc golf population.

 

[ChrisWoj]

PDGA already has a sportsman of the year award.

Oops, I totally missed that his post was a response to one about the PDGA vs one about the DGPT.

 

[_MTL_]

I don't get the drama and claims that DG has this significant rules enforcement problems.

What am I missing?

Players are very clear they don't like making calls. It's a cultural issue - they are worried about tension on a card, tension next week, etc.

 

[txmxer]

Players are very clear they don't like making calls. It's a cultural issue - they are worried about tension on a card, tension next week, etc.

I get that. I guess my point is the problem seems fairly minute in comparison to the amount of attention it is getting.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

All good suggestions. Personally, I think there should be an official on every basket or card at the pro level. I mean, we're dealing with people's livelihoods. They should want profession officials.

I don't believe that is practical at all. I think trying to find enough qualified people would be very difficult. What we need is a rule change which shortens the 'warning" effectiveness to end after a couple holes. We also need the cards position on the course to be a factor. If they are in position leave them the frick alone. if they are out of position an official should step in and time them until they catch back up and then he should leave them once they do. if you have to stand on the tee for 10 minutes and wait, you can sit in the fairway for a minute and wait also. In other words unless the group is out of position you are protecting no one under the current rule. Punishment without a crime.

 

[_MTL_]

I don't believe that is practical at all. I think trying to find enough qualified people would be very difficult. What we need is a rule change which shortens the 'warning" effectiveness to end after a couple holes. We also need the cards position on the course to be a factor. If they are in position leave them the frick alone. if they are out of position an official should step in and time them until they catch back up and then he should leave them once they do. if you have to stand on the tee for 10 minutes and wait, you can sit in the fairway for a minute and wait also. In other words unless the group is out of position you are protecting no one under the current rule. Punishment without a crime.

The golf time rule works because they have the freedom to stop play and finish on Mondays. We don't.

So just because no one is being held up doesn't mean that the event will finish on time and that it's not an issue.

I'm a major "let's not overthink this, what does the PGA do?" person. But in this area, apples and oranges.

 

[prokebyt]

A question for prokebyte: How would you compare PDGA sanctions & resultant revenue impacts to a state athletic commission &/or USADA?

As a Canadian I'm not familiar with what jurisdiction state athletic commissions have. Most of the google results seem to be around fighting sports, but I'm not sure if thats amatuer, professional or both typically?

For doping/USADA, the industry standard is typically a much harsher penalty than for angry/violent/emotional outbursts. Justin Menickelli wrote this in 2018:

The World Anti-Doping Agency lists over 100 banned androgens, hormones, stimulants, diuretics, narcotics, and cannabinoids-- and the PDGA doesn't test for any of them. Drug testing is a very expensive proposition and again, it would take a resolution by the players for us to consider doing so.

Overall, I think the characteristics of where the professional disc golf scene is today, and where it is trending to, the most valuable comparisons when looking at industry standards are to mainstream professional sports. But again, all comparisons should just be for illustrative purposes and we don't only have to look in one place for comparisons.

 

[Hampstead]

Keep tilting at windmills, ballgolfquixote.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

The golf time rule works because they have the freedom to stop play and finish on Mondays. We don't.

So just because no one is being held up doesn't mean that the event will finish on time and that it's not an issue.

I'm a major "let's not overthink this, what does the PGA do?" person. But in this area, apples and oranges.

But there is something deeper than players taking too long to throw causing the slow play, especially since they take too long to throw and still have to wait at the next tee. How is assessing them penalties helping the situation, given that fact? I feel 3.5 hours is the correct amount of time for most of these tour courses for players to be able to give it their best. Perhaps the whole issue revolves around an unrealistic goal of how fast these guys should play on these very tough courses?

 

[dashiellx]

I agree that 18 officials is the future. But we aren't even remotely close and it's simply ill-informed to suggest otherwise.

I did say it was personal opinion and I realize it is completely impractical. We really need a sarcasm font.

However, I did find your post interesting.

 

[_MTL_]

How is assessing them penalties helping the situation, given that fact?

Assessing a warning 90 / 100 times stops it. The 10 times it doesn't in 9 times the penalty does it.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Keep tilting at windmills, ballgolfquixote.

if reason and a quest towards proper sportsmanship ever emerges, the rules will be laid out as I propose. Those who bash me without offering real solutions are the guys riding windmills.

 

[Hampstead]

if reason and a quest towards proper sportsmanship ever emerges, the rules will be laid out as I propose. Those who bash me without offering real solutions are the guys riding windmills.

And yet you continue to post a variation of the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Assessing a warning 90 / 100 times stops it. The 10 times it doesn't in 9 times the penalty does it.

It does not. It may stop one individual from taking too much time, but they still have to wait on the tee for the next group, so it is not improving the pace of play at all. It just increases waiting time on the next tee and creates extra aggravation for the players. if it actually improved pace it would be a different story, but it clearly doesn't. Rounds are not getting any faster and I'll argue that at this level and on these courses, that is ok.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

And yet you continue to post a variation of the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Keep replying to me and putting me down and I will keep replying to you. And I will keep posting until my views becomes reality. What they are doing now is not working, so they need to move to a model that will actually work.