PDGA Board of Director Elections

[chris deitzel]

Sorry you feel that way. I feel as though I've been very respectful in the conversation and the one most-important point of the situation you keep avoidings.

As the "tallest female disc golfer" is it possible that you would not be the tallest had you been born a women?

I'm guessing you won't answer because you realize that my question ends with an answer you don't want to admit saying.

Sorry you feel attacked all of the time. It was your choice to be in this situation and there are reactions to every action.

If the answer is yes, than trans woman should not be competing against naturally born women. It's that simple. If I can't take steroids to play disc golf, then why should someone be able to take hormones to play??

I'm fully behind you as a trans person. I'm just not behind trans women competing for money, sponsorships, scholarships against Womens children who feel that this isn't fair. That's all. Consider how the other people feel about you playing and what it may mean to them also.

 

[Three Putt]

Yet you still have not responded to the most important question? Is it possible that a women who lived their life for 30 years as a man might have mental and physical advantages over a naturally born woman?

And is it possible for a human to change their sex without needed drugs or surgery to do so?

I have no idea why they would have mental advantages. Physical advantages? Sure. There could be physical advantages. Or not. It depends on the individual. We all don't start on a level playing field so far as physical abilities, so that's hard to answer. If for example you look at my body type and then look at Juliana Korver, she has physical gifts to throw a Frisbee that overtake mine. It's never actually a level playing field.

There has always been this sort of la-la-land idea that Ken Climo and I start at the same place and if I had worked as hard and developed that same mental toughness as Climo, I could have been just as good as Climo. It's laughable. I've never been good at any sport, and I wasted countless hours to practice and workouts trying. The fact of the matter is that my physical gifts were so inferior to Climo's that no matter how hard I worked, he was always going to be able to roll out of bed, light a cigarette and beat my ***. That's not really "fair" now, is it? But no one has a problem with that. It is how it is.

So could a woman who is transgender have a physical advantage over a cis gender woman? Sure. Does it exceed the uneven levels of physical skills you already have in a women's division on any given weekend? That's more the question. If a woman who is transgender has physical skills on par with the most gifted players in a woman's field, then puts those skills together and wins, how would that be unfair?

The "without drugs or surgery" comment I don't really get where you are going so I'll have to pass.

 

[Nova P]

Sorry you feel that way.

That's not an apology. That's you telling me that the way I feel is the problem.

It's literally in the header of this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology ("'I'm sorry you feel that way' redirects here.")

I feel as though I've been very respectful in the conversation and the one most-important point of the situation you keep avoidings.

I know that you think you have been respectful. You have not. However, as I mentioned before, you don't listen to me or anything that I tell you. You are utterly disrespectful.

Sorry you feel attacked all of the time.

Maybe stop being an attacker, then. My problem isn't the feelings. It's never the feelings. It's the attackers. That's you. That's who I am talking about. I have told you this five times.

And you do not listen to me.

DO YOU SEE A PATTERN YET?

It was your choice to be in this situation and there are reactions to every action.

Victim blaming. Gross. No reply to this.

I have literally not one second more for you. No matter how low you stoop, no matter what calumny (that means lie) you tell about me, no matter what infuriating and tiresome JAQing-off question you pull out of your ass next, I pledge no response to you.

I leave dealing with you further to the other good people of this forum.

 

[chris deitzel]

What am I attacking and what do I have to be sorry for? I'm discussing why I think trans women shouldn't be playing in the womens division. Nearly every reply you have made has been defensive and actually attacking my charcater. you have no idea who I am. I'm pretty open-minded and willing to discuss topics with those who have the ability to without going into a tirade. Defining a word by definition is quite comical and more of an attack than anything I posted. Enjoy your life. I'll leave you alone.

 

[biscoe]

Steve West mode engaged (Sorry Steve.)... Rating vs Date for 3 FPO players one of whom is transgender.

 

[txmxer]

Chris you are conflating the discussion with gender and sex.

Nova was born female in a male body and when you say "naturally born woman" it is hurtful.

I felt similar about the physical differences but if you start digging in to the fairness question you run into a black hole. I tried to illustrate this to you by having you define how you would differentiate who gets to play in the F division.

You glossed over that as if it were patently obvious. Answer this question in full and I think you will stop demanding Nova to answer your question.

 

[Nova P]

Nova was born female in a male body and when you say "naturally born woman" it is hurtful.

This is an excellent and perceptive point, thank you. The constant use of that kind of vocabulary by him was a thinly-veiled micro-aggression, and part of why I found him so exhausting, and why I found the repeated declarations that he's a friend to LGBT people to be darkly hilarious.

 

[Nova P]

Steve West mode engaged (Sorry Steve.)... Rating vs Date for 3 FPO players one of whom is transgender.

I don't see mine on there, which is good for my pride. My rating has slid 21 points from a high of 906 last autumn down to where it now sits at 885. It's been a rough spring. :doh:

 

[chris deitzel]

Moving right along...

What are some things that members would like to see the PDGA address?

For me, I would like to see the PDGA make another facility similar to the IDGC. A new piece of land that builds new courses that can handle the influx of spectators. Courses with walking paths for the spectators, nice lines of view for live coverage. A large parking area that can handle 1000 cars. PDGA west or something like that. I love the IDGC, but the logistics of it don't quite work in 2022. That would be the one thing I would like to see the PDGA try to accomplish. I think another PDGA center would be great for the sport and would give the PDGA a solid place to run competitions. Not that the IDGC isn't a great place, there just isn't a lot of parking and the course wasn't designed to hold spectators in a way that doesn't interfere with the golfers.

 

[biscoe]

I don't see mine on there, which is good for my pride. My rating has slid 21 points from a high of 906 last autumn down to where it now sits at 885. It's been a rough spring. :doh:

I had a similar drop last year. This aging crap might actually be real.

 

[Nova P]

I had a similar drop last year. This aging crap might actually be real.

I've been dealing with some terrible abdominal issues, but I think they're part of the "getting older" package, so yeah. . . :\

 

[txmxer]

This is an excellent and perceptive point, thank you. The constant use of that kind of vocabulary by him was a thinly-veiled micro-aggression, and part of why I found him so exhausting, and why I found the repeated declarations that he's a friend to LGBT people to be darkly hilarious.

Not long ago, my thoughts were similar to Chris. 3P and your posts and my own desire to understand helped me gain perspective.

I have a gay brother who is a few years older than me. Over the years and the legal efforts/laws that have been passed or shot down or even proposed, he has talked about how hurtful those laws are. They are dehumanizing. Laws that say, "you can't marry the person you love or even love that person openly".

Reading your words and thinking about what he has shared with me, I see the same painful struggle to exist. To be allowed to exist without that existence being challenged as "artificial".

You exist fully as you are and I accept and support that.

 

[biscoe]

What are some things that members would like to see the PDGA address?

Eliminate amount of trinkets rewarded as a/the determining factor in Amateur event tiers.

Make stats available for all to see and stop holding the history of the game hostage.

Stop allowing league points and points from lower divisions as qualifiers for Advanced Worlds. (Stop using points almost entirely would be good as well.)

 

[kerq6c]

I'm fully on board with anyone who proposes removing the requirement of getting stuff (besides paying for a competitive environment) for tournament entry. It's stuff just to get stuff and I don't need any more stuff.

 

[Three Putt]

Eliminate amount of trinkets rewarded as a/the determining factor in Amateur event tiers.

If you can fail to register for an event because you have a slow Internet connection, surely it's time to stop bribing people to play disc golf. It's an unsustainable model that is doomed to die sometime. Time to rip that band aid off, folks.

 

[Robbio123]

Moving right along...
What are some things that members would like to see the PDGA address?

I honestly think the ratings caps per amateur division are incorrect. I'd love to see the ratings cap for the Novice / Rec / Int be modified to: 800 / 865 / 915

Just my opinion tho. However, I think I read or heard in an interview (somewhere) that Nate Heinhold doesn't see that topic being considered anytime soon. Unfortunate.

 

[Three Putt]

Make stats available for all to see and stop holding the history of the game hostage.

Also a great point. No one is signing up for the PDGA just so you can easily google their name and see how well they did at a B tier in 1998. You are not going to lose any memberships by making it visible, so why hide it?

 

[Three Putt]

Stop allowing league points and points from lower divisions as qualifiers for Advanced Worlds. (Stop using points almost entirely would be good as well.)

Eh, I guess I'm done being your "yes" man; you are going to need to sell me here. Points are a dumb system but there has to be something. What are you proposing replacing points with?

Related: Do PDGA sanctioned leagues even make any sense if points are eliminated? Why would you want to play in one?

 

[kerq6c]

Related: Do PDGA sanctioned leagues even make any sense if points are eliminated? Why would you want to play in one?

I play in events for the social and competitive factor. It's why I always enjoyed the Ber Juan doubles leagues.

 

[biscoe]

Eh, I guess I'm done being your "yes" man; you are going to need to sell me here. Points are a dumb system but there has to be something. What are you proposing replacing points with?

Related: Do PDGA sanctioned leagues even make any sense if points are eliminated? Why would you want to play in one?

For advanced worlds I would use ratings across some minimum number of events. Minimum number can be different from one state/country to the next if need be.

PDGA leagues make no sense to me to begin with and I decidedly do NOT want to play in them. They are ratings poison to better players and many of those guys will stay away for that reason alone. I personally look at leagues as a sort of organized practice and rating them makes them less palatable from that perspective. I also look at them as an opportunity to teach some folks should they want to be taught- leagues should always mix divisions imo. The idea of being able to qualify for a high level event based on points accrued in what is generally pretty informal competition (alcohol allowed for instance) seems contrary to the idea of having high level events to begin with.