The Disc Golf Guy - Vlog #364 - Step Putt Analysis for Ulibarri and Feldberg

[Consult20]

Update the rule to enforce both feet behind the marker regardless if on the ground or in the air and this debate never comes up again.

So then follow through on a 400' approach shot would be a penalty, assuming you still must plant within 30cm? Sounds like S&D, not a fan of that rule change.

Or are you saying both feet behind the marker until the disc is released, then do what you want? In that case, it would still be an issue of determining if that happened or not.

 

[Stardoggy]

I brought up the "illegal putting" in another thread. Brought it up again after watching the Maricopa. Disc Guy didn't show all of the putts, and seemed to be a "defender" of Uli and Feldberg. That being said, almost all of the putts looked illegal in real time. But of the ones shown, only one putt looked illegal when he showed the super slo mo.

Terry isn't going to piss off any touring pros. He needs/wants all the support he can get. It's kind of why I don't understand the point of his video...he damn well knows he's got much better examples that would show clear faults.

 

[Streets]

I brought up the "illegal putting" in another thread. Brought it up again after watching the Maricopa. Disc Guy didn't show all of the putts, and seemed to be a "defender" of Uli and Feldberg. That being said, almost all of the putts looked illegal in real time. But of the ones shown, only one putt looked illegal when he showed the super slo mo.

I kind of agree with this. There was a couple more putts (Uli) during the video that were much more "controversial." In my opinion, Feldberg's is much more kosher. He has it down to a science and I very rarely see one that makes me think foot fault. For me Uli is more 50/50.

 

[armiller]

Regardless of whether these are legal/illegal, does anyone believe these guys get an advantage by using this technique? Maybe it's a "mental edge," but I've never been particularly impressed with Feldberg's or Ulibarri's results when putting. On the other hand, I'm usually watching vids of lead/chase/3rd cards, so maybe I'm just comparing them to the best of the best.

 

[DiscFifty]

Or are you saying both feet behind the marker until the disc is released, then do what you want? In that case, it would still be an issue of determining if that happened or not.

There will always be "issues" when any rule, but we wouldn't be worrying about someone 3ft in front of a frickin marker anymore before the disc leaves their hand, which just looks sooo incredible crazy for this sport. And quite frankly if there was an issue of "were both feet actually behind the marker at the time of release" we're talking an error of inches in front of the marker at that point, not 3ft or more like it is now with these step/walking putts.

 

[KniceZ]

I would say the S&D for all but t-shots is a rule that should be considered. It could get rid of a lot of this debate and maybe slow the trend to 1000+ ft holes. Which BTW may be great for score diversity in tournaments but I think actually hurt the growth of the sport. But that's getting off topic.

Before I can support S&D - what exactly does that mean? No walk/run up? Both feet on the ground till when? Both feet behind the plane till when? I see a lot of players lift their back leg even on short putts - is that S&D?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I would say the S&D for all but t-shots is a rule that should be considered. It could get rid of a lot of this debate and maybe slow the trend to 1000+ ft holes. Which BTW may be great for score diversity in tournaments but I think actually hurt the growth of the sport. But that's getting off topic.

Before I can support S&D - what exactly does that mean? No walk/run up? Both feet on the ground till when? Both feet behind the plane till when? I see a lot of players lift their back leg even on short putts - is that S&D?

Granted I'm pretty new to the sport and have never played a tournament or competitive round, but just feel S&D from everywhere but tee pads is kinda no brainer. BUT that being said I don't see how to word the rules that would allow for a reasonable follow through AND not allow something like a step putt.

 

[Agricolae]

There will always be "issues" when any rule, but we wouldn't be worrying about someone 3ft in front of a frickin marker anymore before the disc leaves their hand, which just looks sooo incredible crazy for this sport. And quite frankly if there was an issue of "were both feet actually behind the marker at the time of release" we're talking an error of inches in front of the marker at that point, not 3ft or more like it is now with these step/walking putts.

I was thinking along the same lines. Sure, there'd still be difficulty calling perfectly on putts but, as you said, step putts would be out. No problem with fairway runups/X-steps, unless someone figures out how to follow through with their trailing leg before releasing the disc.

Of course, Chuck's "Crane Putt" would be out ... that can be a real mind-blower for some who haven't seen it.

 

[lyleoross]

If it really doesn't give any advantage, if it's actually counterproductive and has no merits whatsoever, then why allow people to do it at all when it's both hurting their game and detrimental to the spirit of the rules of game? we should just get rid of it and be done with it, no?

I decided to start doing it a bit myself just to test. It's pretty easy to catch on. Getting a lot more forward momentum helps you direct the putt with less effort, makes it more precise, and also puts you a couple feet closer upon releasing your disc.

Maybe not everyone can take advantage of it, but it certainly does change things.

Anything can be learned, take Jeff Bagwell's batting stance, a disaster, yet he hit well. If in the end, as KC has pointed out, you are three foot closer, and still lose no accuracy, you've won....

 

[lyleoross]

We must be watching different tournaments. Game of courtesy?

I wouldn't bring my kids to a ball or disc golf tournament. Worst behavior I've seen is from 1000+ rated players.

Horrible etiquette: head phones in, can't hear your card mates. Cursing, crying, whining. Kicking stools, bags, punching trees, punching the ground. Bad mouthing event staff. Slapping your thigh with your putter. Blaming spectators for missing your putt.

I consider courtesy being a positive personality and keeping your emotions under control to be common courtesy #1, 2 and 3.

I don't think step putters are trying to get one over on anybody, any more than the guy accidentally stepping on his disc during a drive.

Okay, he should have said, golf is supposed to be a game of courtesy. The language put out by both ball and disc golf is consistent with that. The fact that these guys don't take that seriously is irrelevant to the notion that it is important.

I don't think players violating a rule with a step putt is intentional either, pretty much everyone says P.U. is a great guy; and I agree with the idea that asking someone not to use something that gives them an advantage isn't going to work. That's why one of two solutions is required. Rule change, or call him every time you can't positively tell he hasn't foot faulted.

The simple fact is that he is gaining an advantage. If he shaves three to five strokes in a tournament, or even one, that can be several positions on the leader board. If we go back to the notion of basic courtesy and fairness, well, there's a problem that can directly be measured. Nikko having a baby fit may or may not impact my outcome. Paul shaving a stroke, no matter how unintentional, certainly does.

 

[lyleoross]

We have differing opinions. I think that if the PDGA considered it a loophole, they'd rather easily fix it.

But they don't.

Really, that's your argument in support, the PDGA doesn't think it's a problem? I like the PDGA, I support them boisterously, I also don't think they're infallible. In a discussion on the old PDGA DISCussion board, they said quite clearly they could tolerate foot faults on fairway drives because it added excitement to the game, that is, a run up did.

The PDGA tasks itself with both rules of the game and excitement of the game, i.e. marketing. One could imagine a slight conflict in those two jobs.

 

[lyleoross]

Regardless of whether these are legal/illegal, does anyone believe these guys get an advantage by using this technique? Maybe it's a "mental edge," but I've never been particularly impressed with Feldberg's or Ulibarri's results when putting. On the other hand, I'm usually watching vids of lead/chase/3rd cards, so maybe I'm just comparing them to the best of the best.

Uli hits them frequently, over 50% in what I've seen. Feldberg not so much. That is based on random online videos so take it with a grain. It could be on every video I've not watched, Uli has missed all his step putts, and Fedlberg has hit every one.

 

[lyleoross]

There will always be "issues" when any rule, but we wouldn't be worrying about someone 3ft in front of a frickin marker anymore before the disc leaves their hand, which just looks sooo incredible crazy for this sport. And quite frankly if there was an issue of "were both feet actually behind the marker at the time of release" we're talking an error of inches in front of the marker at that point, not 3ft or more like it is now with these step/walking putts.

I'm going to disagree that there are issues with any rule. Most rules can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Is that disc in or out? Everyone is looking at the disc, and gets their vote. The step putt is very complex because you have to call it in real time. That makes it harder. The rule can be changed to make it easier. S & D, or you're not allowed to progress beyond your disc does that. It is much simpler than "did the disc leave his hand before his foot hit the ground."

Our goal as players should be to make the rules as simple, and easily enforceable as possible.

 

[lyleoross]

Granted I'm pretty new to the sport and have never played a tournament or competitive round, but just feel S&D from everywhere but tee pads is kinda no brainer. BUT that being said I don't see how to word the rules that would allow for a reasonable follow through AND not allow something like a step putt.

It's really easy. Go watch videos, most players actually do it on most shots. It does take some distance off of very long fairway drives, but not much. It's mostly a comfort thing. X stepping into an approach shot, or fairway drive builds momentum into the throw more easily than S & D. Different skill sets so to speak.

 

[lyleoross]

I was thinking along the same lines. Sure, there'd still be difficulty calling perfectly on putts but, as you said, step putts would be out. No problem with fairway runups/X-steps, unless someone figures out how to follow through with their trailing leg before releasing the disc.

Of course, Chuck's "Crane Putt" would be out ... that can be a real mind-blower for some who haven't seen it.

The original reason for the 10 meter was Stork Roddick. Apparently, he would lean in from way out, and drop the disc in while falling forward. If you think about the logical extension, PU is doing the same thing, just from farther back. The argument would be that he's far enough out that it doesn't matter. They should have fixed the rule correctly the first time, but they wanted to leave fairway drives intact.

 

[Consult20]

My vote would be to leave the rules as-is regarding step putting. If it's an obvious violation beyond a shadow of a doubt, call it. Otherwise, don't. These are all too close to call in real time. If any particular type of throwing motion were gaining people an advantage, everybody would be doing it.

 

[VictorB]

No call. No fault.

No discernible advantage was gained. Maybe even slightly disadvantaged from stepping on his disc.

To me its only worth it to call a foot fault if someone is obviously trying to gain an edge or advantage in their shot motion. That includes puttjumps or whatever (and I step putt but pretty obviously don't foot fault. plus I suck anyway so no one cares)

Personally I have always wished I could putt longer distances like Ron Russell. He was a magician.

 

[GB Phil G]

So what would happen if you called a guy out (jumping foot fault) does someone else have to agree then, for any action to be taken? Or wait, what if nobody agreed, but you keep calling it every time anyways. Could someone turn it back on you, give you a courtesy violation and tell you to stop? The plot thickens!

 

[Kodachrome]

My vote would be to leave the rules as-is regarding step putting. If it's an obvious violation beyond a shadow of a doubt, call it. Otherwise, don't. These are all too close to call in real time. If any particular type of throwing motion were gaining people an advantage, everybody would be doing it.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Only call it if the rule is obviously broken, but leave it as it is? That's the whole point of the discussion. You admitted it yourself. There aren't many real-time scenarios where it's easy to tell with this type of putting motion.

We are talking about how to change the rules to better keep violations outside of this grey area. That's exactly what you want: clear violations or non-violations. Knowing this, how could you be for keeping the rule as it is?

Who cares whether or not it is an advantage (it is)? We need our rules to get rid of this kind of bs. Otherwise why have rules?

 

[Consult20]

This doesn't make any sense to me.

Only call it if the rule is obviously broken, but leave it as it is? That's the whole point of the discussion. You admitted it yourself. There aren't many real-time scenarios where it's easy to tell with this type of putting motion.

We are talking about how to change the rules to better keep violations outside of this grey area. That's exactly what you want: clear violations or non-violations. Knowing this, how could you be for keeping the rule as it is?

Who cares whether or not it is an advantage (it is)? We need our rules to get rid of this kind of bs. Otherwise why have rules?

This is what I said:

My vote would be to leave the rules as-is regarding step putting. If it's an obvious violation beyond a shadow of a doubt, call it. Otherwise, don't. These are all too close to call in real time. If any particular type of throwing motion were gaining people an advantage, everybody would be doing it.

It makes perfect sense to me, step and jump putting are part of the sport -- just because some are better at it than others, or just because some can't do it at all doesn't mean they should be eliminated.