The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[krik72]

If I am throwing a 400' RHBH am I at least half hitting it?

 

[emiller3]

Here are the details of my plight, I post it in the hopes that it will help someone:

My distance has been down lately, I've only been occasionally hitting 400' with my Destroyer for the last couple months. I haven't really cared, because I gained a lot in accuracy and have been focusing on my putting. But I was intrigued by the hammer drills, so I gave it a whirl.

The overhand and forehand drills were intuitive and easy, and they got me the little bit of distance that I've been missing. I already threw farther than the drills said I would, so I haven't seen a real increase in distance, but I've got better command and a better understanding of what's going on...it's been a good thing.

I really struggled with the backhand drills. At first I was doing them like when you whip a towel, kind of jerking my forearm back to get snap. When I tried to incorporate that into a throw, it was useless. So I started playing with angles and positions and timing and stuff to see if I could get some kind of weight shift. I found I could if I kept things close to the body and got my elbow bent out in front of me (like the right pec drill, which I never took the time to try.) After that I started trying to focus the feeling and strengthen in, just by more examination and trial/error, moving my arm in different ways and accelerating at different times, stuff like that. By the end of that, I had a much better feel for what I should be experiencing.

Since I don't have the luxury of getting out to the practice field any more, I grabbed a towel and starting trying to incorporate what I was doing. I was getting the faint whisper of a snap at first, so I started playing with timing, pulling slower, pulling into my chest (literally feels like I'm pulling into myself), stuff like that. By the end of that session I was snapping the crap out of the towel. But it wasn't like before, when I wasn't sure why I was snapping it...this time I felt pretty confident I could incorporate it into my throw.

I went and played a round the next day and had that old, familiar D back...maybe more. Threw my Eagle 400' on a slightly uphill hole that usually plays a good 20-30' longer due to the incline. Didn't get a chance to air it out with my Destroyers, I turned and burned one and grip locked another. But by the end of the round I was overshooting everything with my Eagle with ease. What a great feeling.

Since then I've continued to do towel sessions as well as scaled back versions with a disc in my hand. I can really feel the weight shift of the disc now that I know what I'm looking for. I'm in and out of being able to towel snap, but I can pretty much tell what I'm doing wrong when I misfire, and I'm getting a better percentage of good throws every time. I feel confident that I can take that and apply it to my throw out on the course. The only problem is that I'm not getting a good chance to feel and influence the weight shift/pivot of the disc, since I'm not practicing with a disc in my hand. I'll have to do my best to work that out on the course. But either way, I anticipate some setbacks, but I at least know what I'm looking for. And even if I revert, I can say the hammer drills probably did more good for me than I thought they would.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Good to hear people are starting to have breakthroughs. Keep with it and dont think its over yet.

Just when you think you have it down pat, put in twice the effort on it.

That is what im about to start doing. ( that and the heat wave here has finally broken. highs in the upper 80's to low 90's beat 100+ weather )

 

[Blake_T1]

At first I was doing them like when you whip a towel, kind of jerking my forearm back to get snap. When I tried to incorporate that into a throw, it was useless. So I started playing with angles and positions and timing and stuff to see if I could get some kind of weight shift. I found I could if I kept things close to the body and got my elbow bent out in front of me (like the right pec drill, which I never took the time to try.) After that I started trying to focus the feeling and strengthen in, just by more examination and trial/error, moving my arm in different ways and accelerating at different times, stuff like that. By the end of that, I had a much better feel for what I should be experiencing.

this is the key. experimentation. trial and error. find what feels right. find what feels stronger. integrate.

it's that process where most people want to cheat.

 

[masterbeato]

yeah you will go far man. experimentation was/is one of the keys to my success. you really do have to find things out on your own.

 

[gretagun]

this is the key. experimentation. trial and error. find what feels right. find what feels stronger. integrate.

it's that process where most people want to cheat.

I'll second this. You can't just go out to a field and not see any improvements if your aren't willing to try different things.

Speaking of this, I have been experimenting with this secret technique, and for the time being, I'm ignoring my body positions, and focusing on the "pounding of the hammer". I was starting to figure this out before this technique was posted, so I think I'm on the right track. Once thing that I have noticed, however, is I get better results if I keep the disc further away from my body, which seems to contradict everything I've ever read about technique. When I focus on keeping the disc further from my body, it's usually on the reachback, and then I don't focus on anything but feeling the weight shift of the disc. I have not videotaped this, but I have a feeling that I might have been wrapping the disc around my torso on my reachback, and perhaps it just feels like the disc is now really far from my body. I also caught some small tidbit Blake had written about someone who may have been keeping the disc too close to their axis. This just has me really confused at the moment, and I don't want to start adopting any bad habits since it has taken years to break many other bad habits.

 

[what'shisname]

I haven't had any time lately to play around with these drills except for the odd time here at work I'll pick up the only disc within reach, a core, and try and get the feel for the weight shift of the disc. Anyway, the idea behind the "pound the hammer" really resonated with me and last night during my round I was thinking about it during my drives and it really helped with my aiming, especially on my FH drives which were far and away the highlight of my round last night. I could really feel the weight of the disc on the FH's and it helped immensely. One area of my FH that I've always struggled with was approach shots. Last night I found myself in some trouble under a tree and the only line I could reach was an awkward FH. I thought about pounding the hammer, got the weight shift feel going and released a beautiful get out of jail FH upshot.

I don't quite have the feel for it on the BH's yet, but I think if I can find some time to actually run the drills a bit and get out in the field I'll definitely benefit from the ideas in the thread. Thanks for all the work in explaining this stuff!

 

[Dr. Burd]

When I focus on keeping the disc further from my body, it's usually on the reachback, and then I don't focus on anything but feeling the weight shift of the disc. ...I might have been wrapping the disc around my torso on my reachback...

If you're concentrating on the weight shift, and closing your hips properly, the disc will come in close to your right side/pec/etc. before you open to your target and leverage the disc out and away from you.

Hold a disc at the middle of your chest, elbow bent, like you're halfway through a throw. Now reach back and close your hips to the throw - obviously the disc isn't close in this position at all. Now, without opening your hips yet, pull the disc straight - it has nowhere to go other than directly into your chest and will be much closer than if you had opened your hips and attempted to pull straight through at that point. This will also cause you to begin opening your position because the elbow can only go so far without taking your shoulder and torso with it.

In my experience, it's extremely difficult to tell that this is happening (unless you watch yourself on video). I was splaying shots all over and I was under the impression that I had my form all out of whack. In reality, the disc was coming off the center of my chest fairly well, but I was aiming my body the wrong direction - the problem had more to do with footwork (and timing, and keeping my shoulders parallel, but you get the idea).

 

[Blake_T1]

gretagun:

it's easier to start far away and pull in than it is to start near and keep it in during the pull.

if you watch video of dan, he has a fairly wide reach but then pulls it way tight at the power zone (right edge of the body).

as long as you can direct the disc forwards on line, you are doing fine. if you go too wide you'll either have no pound feeling or you'll grip lock everything. if the directions are going okay, things are going okay.

 

[emiller3]

this is the key. experimentation. trial and error. find what feels right. find what feels stronger. integrate.

it's that process where most people want to cheat.

Once thing that I have noticed, however, is I get better results if I keep the disc further away from my body, which seems to contradict everything I've ever read about technique. When I focus on keeping the disc further from my body, it's usually on the reachback, and then I don't focus on anything but feeling the weight shift of the disc.

Like people said, being further out on the reachback is not the same as being further out as the disc is coming across your body. Interesting that reaching out further actually makes it easier to get the disc close when it matters. I have found that to be true and it was one of the variables I was experimenting with doing the towel and hammer drills.

 

[josser]

At first I was doing them like when you whip a towel, kind of jerking my forearm back to get snap. When I tried to incorporate that into a throw, it was useless. So I started playing with angles and positions and timing and stuff to see if I could get some kind of weight shift. I found I could if I kept things close to the body and got my elbow bent out in front of me (like the right pec drill, which I never took the time to try.) After that I started trying to focus the feeling and strengthen in, just by more examination and trial/error, moving my arm in different ways and accelerating at different times, stuff like that. By the end of that, I had a much better feel for what I should be experiencing.

this is the key. experimentation. trial and error. find what feels right. find what feels stronger. integrate.

it's that process where most people want to cheat.

I'm in the want to cheat camp for sure (even if I don't like to admit it to myself). But now that some people are starting to report on their successes and failures, I'm excited to learn from the collective wisdom. For example, with putting I did as Blake has done and suggested and tried to emulate the form of as many putters as possible to see which things work and what effect various changes have. This emulation requires less imagination in the experimentation process and I think I am not doing great in the imagination in experimentation with the hammer pound. So I look forward to more hammer pound trial and error stories to help my own experimentation process.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Interesting that reaching out further actually makes it easier to get the disc close when it matters.

Think of an ice skater.

Here is a little more on the physics involved. Im sure you can see the parallels to disc golf including the pull through.

Studying the spin of an ice skater is an excellent way to demonstrate the physics of ice skating concept called angular momentum and how it is conserved. The skater moves slowly while arms spread across, when the skater brings her hands closer to her body, the speed of spinning increases so that the moment is maintained. (think reach back to pull through)

So even though the speed and angular velocity will increase upon compression (what you gain by pulling your arms in close to your body) , the amount of area all elements of mass will sweep out is relative to the axis that will remain constant when totaled, minus a small amount of loss due to friction. (how far out your arms and off leg will extend during your follow through)

Spinning is also dependent on 'torque' the force that leads to rotation. This force is achieved by pushing the ice. (pushing off with your back foot to start the pull through)

For example, you see a skater achieving multiple spins in edge jumps. Jumps with names such as double-axel, which result from the torque created by the turning of the skate as she takes off from the ice surface. (rotating your hips)

She can increase her rotational speed by pulling in her hands closer to body (pull through), but stretches her hands and legs for stability while landing. (follow through)

With practice, a skater will acquire the skills to effectively use these forces to her advantage and that makes for impressive figure skating. (MAD DISC GOLF SKILLZ SON!)

It is NOT knowledge of physics of ice skating that helps figure skaters make exciting movements. Instead, it's the practice, the effort, and fluid motion they put in with little or no regard for the theory.

I really think that last sentence applies just as much to disc golf. You dont have to understand the physics to benefit from the results. It's the practice, the effort, and fluid motion put in that gain you the result, not the knowledge.

That is why the "Feel" is such a key part to these techniques. You don't need to know the physics to use them.

 

[Blake_T1]

If I am throwing a 400' RHBH am I at least half hitting it?

400' with a teebird, yes, you would be half-hitting it.

400' with a nuke, wraith, destroyer, boss, etc. probably not.

 

[josser]

I really struggled with the backhand drills. At first I was doing them like when you whip a towel, kind of jerking my forearm back to get snap. When I tried to incorporate that into a throw, it was useless.

For drill 6 this is exactly how I've been getting the disc to whip around the fastest. Figuring out the timing and position to get comparable whipping speed without jerking my forearm back is probably going to be my key to really getting this.

 

[JHern]

...You dont have to understand the physics to benefit from the results. It's the practice, the effort, and fluid motion put in that gain you the result, not the knowledge.

That is why the "Feel" is such a key part to these techniques. You don't need to know the physics to use them.

Truth! Man, I was playing doubles last night and one of the regulars at the course (a huge dude, probably 350-400 lbs) was really impressing us with his recent distance gains. On one of the long holes, 450' away and 20' uphill, he overthrew the pin by 40'! No joke, this guy got snap in the past few months, and I was wondering what the hell he had done to get it. He's not a genius by any stretch, and when I asked him what he was doing different he said "before, I used to do this" and held his breath and then burst the air out of his lungs violently after a few seconds. Then he said "now I do this" and he breathed calmly and held his breath for just a moment before releasing it nice and easy. I was like, "WTF!" He said "I don't know man, I just changed the way I breathe." :lol: :lol: :lol:

Clearly this dude has no idea about the physics. He just changed his rhythm and feel for the throw, and developed what seems to be immaculate timing through breathing experimentation.

 

[JR]

The pulling back with the arm bit is best for feeling the tendon bounce. It is not the first step one should try even if it might be in the right direction. I'm not claiming it is the right direction in an actual throw of full force. I don't know yet from personal experience. I do know that it is easy for me to get the tendon bounce from properly timed elbow retraction. Tendon bounce in a dry run drill situation needs also a very forceful late acceleration starting from about 8" short of the arm being straight. From that position I can get a tendon bounce with and without elbow pull back. The pull back produces a more forceful tendon bounce and at least in theory should spin the disc faster if the grip holds long enough. And therein lies the beauty of late acceleration. I've gotten less flipping when I've tried to throw max D but with trying to delay the hardest arm speed acceleration until the hammer pound and trying to actively to snap the wrist to the right of neutral. So far without an active stopping component. That's too harsh for my arm so far. I'll have to work out so that my arm can take the shaking. So far the elbow pull back is off the menu but even that late pounding focus has given me nice D. At least I've maintained D.

 

[garublador1]

For those that have either taught people to full hit or have learned to full hit it themselves, do you think it would be easier to concentrate on half hitting and then worrying about full hitting or just trying to full hit it from the beginning? Or, does it just depend on the person?

 

[racer93]

For those that have either taught people to full hit or have learned to full hit it themselves, do you think it would be easier to concentrate on half hitting and then worrying about full hitting or just trying to full hit it from the beginning? Or, does it just depend on the person?

it might depend on the person, but for me it was half-hit, then full hit. My plateau wasn't very long, as some friends helped me get to the full hit rather quickly. I don't think that you MUST half hit before fully, as the only difference for me was a longer reach back (or as Blake has pointed out, moving my weight from my back foot to the front more effectively). Had I realized this (and thus listened to blake ) earlier, I would not have half-hit it.

Daniel

 

[bcsst26]

For those that have either taught people to full hit or have learned to full hit it themselves, do you think it would be easier to concentrate on half hitting and then worrying about full hitting or just trying to full hit it from the beginning? Or, does it just depend on the person?

Better question is how would you teach someone who is half hitting it to full hit it?

 

[emiller3]

I really struggled with the backhand drills. At first I was doing them like when you whip a towel, kind of jerking my forearm back to get snap. When I tried to incorporate that into a throw, it was useless.

For drill 6 this is exactly how I've been getting the disc to whip around the fastest. Figuring out the timing and position to get comparable whipping speed without jerking my forearm back is probably going to be my key to really getting this.

I try not to give advice here, because I think I generally don't know how to fix people's form. I may be wrong here as well, but here's what I did to fix that:

Stand in the right pec position with your elbow facing your target with nothing in your hand. Keep your wrist limp and let your hand hang towards your chest (fingers and thumb pointing towards your chest, hanging down a little.) It's ok to be pointing at your sternum instead of your right pec. Using your shoulder and your elbow, jab your elbow forward like you're trying to elbow something in front of you. You should feel your hand collapse into your forearm and bounce. Play with your elbow height and using different muscles to perform this until you feel the one that gets you the most bounce. Now, when you feel your hand collapse, chop your forearm open and you can feel your wrist swing open. That's the feeling you're looking for, your wrist will swing from closed to neutral (or open) instead of neutral to open, which is what the towel whipping motion does. Start reaching back a little and see if you can keep that feeling. Keep going back and working with it until you're able to work it into your throw. Like Blake said, anything that makes that feeling better, keep with it. Anything that causes you to lose it, get rid of it. Many people have posted little tips and hints, those will help you more if you know what feeling you're looking for to begin with.

I could be doing something completely different when I actually throw, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But that's how I initially got out of the rut of the wrong snapping motion.

Man, I am loving this new found distance. Didn't even pull out my Destroyers this morning, just stuck to Eagles. Got a 420' pump on a line drive that tracked left a little (LHBH), felt great. I'm throwing from a standstill now on the shorter holes, which I never used to do. And I've basically disced down and I'm getting at least as much if not more distance with each slower class of discs. Shot a personal best despite sketch putting. It's still hard to be consistent, but I've been working with the towel drill every night and it seems like I was successful on 75% of the tees this morning.

I've always been more intrigued by the accuracy part of this whole deal than the D. As long as I keep the disc close to my chest I'm just as accurate as I used to be, but I haven't found that easy accuracy a couple of you have mentioned. I guess I'll have to go back and read some more. I haven't quite been able to translate this to my 80% throw (where I keep the target in my peripheral view), just my full throw, so I'm having to turn my back on more holes than I used to.