TimG can you just erase worthless reviews?

[RomServo]

Reviews from a newbie's perspective? All the more reason to keep them. Think of how much different you perceive the one nearby course now compared to two years ago.

I dont think that intentionally leaving poor information online for other people to become misinformed by, in order to maintain a sense of nostalgia about my initial newbie reactions, seems productive.

Truthfully, what I'm most likely to do is just go to those reviews and remove all the content completely. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is the very issue that sparked the creation of this thread to begin with.

 

[NDABRUSH]

Exactly my experience. I had one very critical review a short while ago that REALLY touched a nerve with a bunch of course homers apparently. That review was just as well thought out and well written as any other review I've ever put out there and I'm quite sure the thumb - downs were myopic homers who were thumbing it down not because it wasn't helpful but because they didn't agree with my *ahem* rather accurate assessment of their crappy course.

And honestly, I wear those thumb-downs with a badge of honor. Sort of validates my reviews in a indirect way in that unlike some prolific reviewers I do not hesitate to say what needs to be said even if it's a little unpleasant to the locals.

We know you as davetherocketguy, but all local homers know you as The Dreamcrusher.

 

[aclay]

Course designer masquerading as a reviewer

My concern is more with course designers who review their own courses (giving glowing reviews) and never disclose that they are the course designer. This seems to be seriously unethical. If I know the glowing review is coming from the course designer, I am likely to take it with a grain of salt. I'm not sure the designer should be allowed to review his/her course, but I'm sure that at a minimum he/she should be required to disclose that fact. A redesigned course in my area has two reviews (1 disc and 4.5 discs). Guess which one comes from the course designer?

 

[DavidSauls]

My concern is more with course designers who review their own courses (giving glowing reviews) and never disclose that they are the course designer. This seems to be seriously unethical. If I know the glowing review is coming from the course designer, I am likely to take it with a grain of salt. I'm not sure the designer should be allowed to review his/her course, but I'm sure that at a minimum he/she should be required to disclose that fact. A redesigned course in my area has two reviews (1 disc and 4.5 discs). Guess which one comes from the course designer?

It only matters for a course with only a couple of reviews. After that, the numbers average out; the 1 designer's review getting averaged away by all of the other non-designers' reviews.

And for a course with only a couple of reviews, you might say that's the one that needs more info, not matter who it comes from.

Though I agree that reviewers should reveal their biases. But it's not a big deal if they don't.

 

[dreadlock86]

it is still annoying. and the numbers only average out over time if the course gets enough traffic. at the moment, over 40% of the courses on DGCR have fewer than 5 reviews.


i know the course in question and that review bugged me too. it prompted me to look at the reviewing rules because i could have sworn that at some point in the past there used to be a rule against designers reviewing their own course. isn't there also a "designers review" designation that can appear on reviews from the designer? can i flag a review and get it labeled as a "designers review"?

 

[DavidSauls]

That's a very extreme example---2 reviews, 1.0 and 4.5.

In most cases, a designer's review might be slightly higher than everyone else. If he rates it a full disc higher, after 5 reviews that will be an 0.2 bump; after 10, 0.1. Unless he's a harsh self-critic, in which it might even be lower.

In the meantime, the reviewer's views might be invaluable. But not only should the designer disclaim that in his review, so you know his bias, it might make the review better---just knowing that the facts in the review come straight from the source.

 

[biscoe]

Well done reviews from course designers would be among the most valuable you could have imo. I personally would nitpick my courses to death. The thought of over-rating my own design just seems weird to me.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Well done reviews from course designers would be among the most valuable you could have imo. I personally would nitpick my courses to death. The thought of over-rating my own design just seems weird to me.

I agree that designers could be more critical of their designs because they know what they couldn't do due to terrain, flow, budget or time constraints. I'm always interested to see when a critic touches on more subtle issues that most will not recognize.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Personally, I think a good review from the designer can provide insight that we might not get otherwise. All depends on the person writing the review. Not all designers will be as objective, critical, or honest, as John and David.


The important thing is for courses to get enough legit, objective reviews, from enough unbiased people, so that they reach that "critical mass" where a few outliers don't affect the ratings that much. So...

IF YOU PLAY A COURSE WITH LESS THAN 20 OR SO REVIEWS, TAKE THE TIME TO WRITE A DECENT, OBJECTIVE REVIEW!!!!!

 

[Noill]

Just an opinion... Designers should hold back a review until others get some reviews in... Personally, I'd like to see where people are with thinking about the course first.

But... that's just an opinion.

As for saying that you are the designer...I have no opinion.

 

[Chaz58]

Personally I leave the reviews to players more experienced and advanced than I am. Sure, I could review how beautiful (or not) a course is but when it comes to the more intricate details I could only go from my playing experience and my level of play. My major complaint is that the players in my area just don't leave many reviews, even for the better rated courses. Perhaps if more players reviewed a course such as The Canyons at Dellwood Park a major tournament or 2 might actually get played there. It certainly is a better course (imho) than a lot of the courses I have watched majors being played at on Youtube. Hell, if I was reviewing the courses I play most of you's would be asking TimG to get rid of them, as in "this guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about!". The only review I ever did was more of a condition update of the course, which used to be an excellent 4+ rated course with plenty of trees and elevation shots but was literally being turned into a garbage dump with tons of litter and broken glass on every hole.

 

[NDABRUSH]

Well done reviews from course designers would be among the most valuable you could have imo. I personally would nitpick my courses to death. The thought of over-rating my own design just seems weird to me.

The info in the owners reviews should be the most valuable, especially if it is designed where it is hard to find the next T-pad/hole. I suck, therefore I prefer to play rounds alone... for the most part. So navigation tips always mean the world to me, and who would know better than the owner?:thmbup:

 

[jtencer]

Personally I leave the reviews to players more experienced and advanced than I am. Sure, I could review how beautiful (or not) a course is but when it comes to the more intricate details I could only go from my playing experience and my level of play. My major complaint is that the players in my area just don't leave many reviews, even for the better rated courses. Perhaps if more players reviewed a course such as The Canyons at Dellwood Park a major tournament or 2 might actually get played there. It certainly is a better course (imho) than a lot of the courses I have watched majors being played at on Youtube. Hell, if I was reviewing the courses I play most of you's would be asking TimG to get rid of them, as in "this guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about!". The only review I ever did was more of a condition update of the course, which used to be an excellent 4+ rated course with plenty of trees and elevation shots but was literally being turned into a garbage dump with tons of litter and broken glass on every hole.

Reviews from newer/less advanced players can be invaluable to other newer/less advanced players. Most of us aren't actually very good so having a variety of perspectives is helpful. How fun your round is likely to be can have a lot to do with how the course difficulty lines up with your skill level.

 

[dreadlock86]

Personally I leave the reviews to players more experienced and advanced than I am. Sure, I could review how beautiful (or not) a course is but when it comes to the more intricate details I could only go from my playing experience and my level of play. My major complaint is that the players in my area just don't leave many reviews, even for the better rated courses. Perhaps if more players reviewed a course such as The Canyons at Dellwood Park a major tournament or 2 might actually get played there. It certainly is a better course (imho) than a lot of the courses I have watched majors being played at on Youtube. Hell, if I was reviewing the courses I play most of you's would be asking TimG to get rid of them, as in "this guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about!". The only review I ever did was more of a condition update of the course, which used to be an excellent 4+ rated course with plenty of trees and elevation shots but was literally being turned into a garbage dump with tons of litter and broken glass on every hole.

Reviews from newer/less advanced players can be invaluable to other newer/less advanced players. Most of us aren't actually very good so having a variety of perspectives is helpful. How fun your round is likely to be can have a lot to do with how the course difficulty lines up with your skill level.

i second jtencer's comment: reviews from all skill levels are valuable.

i've been playing 11 years now but i'm still at an intermediate skill level, rated 884, under 300' on controlled distance, 350' max on my best day. i'd like to think that i can appreciate course design on a higher level than my skill, watching lots of open-level playing help i think.

all that said, i probably get more from a review by a less skilled player than an advanced level player. we're closer in skill level and if a rec or int player says a course is fun and rewarding for their skill level then it will probably be the same or similar for me.

 

[blake833]

IF YOU PLAY A COURSE WITH LESS THAN 20 OR SO REVIEWS, TAKE THE TIME TO WRITE A DECENT, OBJECTIVE REVIEW!!!!!

and maybe "thumbs up" some of the reviews already written too
:thmbup:

 

[scarpfish]

....OBJECTIVE REVIEW!!!!!

No such thing. A review by it's very nature is merely a glorified opinion. Opinions by their very nature are subjective.

Now using, objective criteria in one's review, well that's doable.

 

[d11rok]

I don't know if it's been mentioned in this lengthy thread, but I have seen this mentioned in other places....some reviewers might just prefer to give a rating to the course without having to write a well thought out review.

Making the actual review mandatory likely increases the amount of "worthless" reviews.

 

[DavidSauls]

I don't know if it's been mentioned in this lengthy thread, but I have seen this mentioned in other places....some reviewers might just prefer to give a rating to the course without having to write a well thought out review.

Making the actual review mandatory likely increases the amount of "worthless" reviews.

.....or reduces the number of unsubstantiated ratings.

A rating with an explanation of "why" is much better than just a number. And, after all, the site is discgolfcoursereview.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Personally I leave the reviews to players more experienced and advanced than I am.

My major complaint is that the players in my area just don't leave many reviews . . .

Hmmm. I think I found the problem.

 

[dreadlock86]

surely some people are intimidated having to put their words to the page to write a review. those of us chatting in online forums are probably not so familiar with the feeling. sometimes i try to check my own biased instinct to not up-vote very short reviews or to up-vote longer reviews just because they appear more thorough. there's nothing wrong with being succinct in a review although its usefulness may end up more limited. the new Jarva reviews come to mind.


also

i think there is a big difference between experience and skill level. with more experience you hopefully have a decent shorter game, can manipulate more different lines, and have more shots in the bag overall. but that doesn't mean that you have competitive distance or the required degree of accuracy or comfort from the edge of the circle.

i also think there is a difference between playing experience and course experience. i know great players who have only played a few local courses. they are naturally athletic, love the game, and play a bunch but don't really care about seeing other courses or more particularly, traveling to get to them. i know a lot of people that only go to courses they haven't been to when they want to go to a tourney there.
and then of course there are players who will be AM2 for life and never break 900 that have played hundreds of courses in regions around the country and around the world. they might not be lighting up those courses but they're probably learning about course design and at the least seeing a larger variety of hole types, obstacles, required lines, etc.
that's useful knowledge and if you can put it into words well then you can probably write decent reviews. trusted reviewers are just a certain type of person who has played at least 10 courses. they're certainly not necessarily good golfers, though some are.