Where does all the am money go in tournments

[Royal Hill]

Stores that run events make money off of merchandise sales, raffles, Ctp Games, etc. I'll reference an earlier post of mine in this thread... If it costs me a minimum of $17.25 per person in overhead alone to include a custom stamped disc pp, I'd need to charge at least $50 registration per player to have an average payout and $5 profit. No way Jose will that ever fly here. So we fundraise by selling sponsorships and club discs. Good affordable events pull in renewing club members and new club members that find/provide new sponsors, new club members, and buy more club stuff. Same with businesses running events. Same with manufacturers offering ace race style events.

Jrawk, your prior post breaking down overhead per player was indeed great.

Your last line does raise a point I've been thinking about a fair amount the last year or two.

Once upon a time, disc golf "player gifts" (pp) of discs were the way (if not nearly the only way) for players to get disc golf equipment, thus many events nobly played the role of "getting equipment into new players hands to help grow the sport"

Now, this principle still holds true often, however the rise of the manufacturer driven product promo event has greatly swooped in to fill this role nicely (and in a fiscally unbeatable way, in my opinion). Sure, Discraft has been doing it for a long time, but the last 12-24 months has seen an explosion of new company additions to the 25 dollar or so, get two discs + model. It wouldn't be unreasonable to find many communities ending up with up to three or four manufacturer events in their area in a calendar year.

So this is the thinking point. If discs to new players are being "well served" by the manufacturer product events... Plus local retail.. Then maybe we rethink the need for event hotstamp orders (as often for routine events) and the machine of events that cascades out of that as a result.
(minimum orders, inventory and attendance risk points, etc)

Drop the disc orders, go more trophy onlys, lower the entry - and coordinate with a merchandiser for on site sales to those who still want to "buy some stuff"
(or cash out merchandise vouchers if you are going to do that)
Itd be a way to drop that per player operating overhead perhaps for a segment of events and keep more events out of the 50 plus cost range. One could likely run some great sub 25 or sub 20 events, and not risk losing ones shirt over excess inventory/ attendance speculation

 

[Harrishabitat]

Jrawk, your prior post breaking down overhead per player was indeed great.

Your last line does raise a point I've been thinking about a fair amount the last year or two.

Once upon a time, disc golf "player gifts" (pp) of discs were the way (if not nearly the only way) for players to get disc golf equipment, thus many events nobly played the role of "getting equipment into new players hands to help grow the sport"

Now, this principle still holds true often, however the rise of the manufacturer driven product promo event has greatly swooped in to fill this role nicely (and in a fiscally unbeatable way, in my opinion). Sure, Discraft has been doing it for a long time, but the last 12-24 months has seen an explosion of new company additions to the 25 dollar or so, get two discs + model. It wouldn't be unreasonable to find many communities ending up with up to three or four manufacturer events in their area in a calendar year.

So this is the thinking point. If discs to new players are being "well served" by the manufacturer product events... Plus local retail.. Then maybe we rethink the need for event hotstamp orders (as often for routine events) and the machine of events that cascades out of that as a result.
(minimum orders, inventory and attendance risk points, etc)

Drop the disc orders, go more trophy onlys, lower the entry - and coordinate with a merchandiser for on site sales to those who still want to "buy some stuff"
(or cash out merchandise vouchers if you are going to do that)
Itd be a way to drop that per player operating overhead perhaps for a segment of events and keep more events out of the 50 plus cost range. One could likely run some great sub 25 or sub 20 events, and not risk losing ones shirt over excess inventory/ attendance speculation

Please please please dont ever get rid of tournament stamp discs. I dont know about you but myself and a lot of people I know keep them as wall hangers. If all I get is a tournament disc for my wall I feel it was a good weekend (plus the golf of course).

And I it gest mentioned a lot about lowering the cost of events... this still makes no sense to me. Most 1 day events cost less then $30.00 ... what else can you pay just $30 for and get a full days worth of entertainment?

 

[disc gopher]

Something that should be mentioned...lets say in a C-tier entry costs $50 for pros, $30 advanced, $20 am divisions. Lets say there's a decent field of 20 or so pros...if you come in 3rd you are probably going to get around a $100 "prize". Yet you paid 50 to play, so you really only won $50, but most ams think that person made a good profit which just isn't true especially when factoring in travel, extra for ace/ctp, and lunch.

You could shoot 1000 rated on the day and still break even. Sometimes I can't blame people for bagging...

 

[Royal Hill]

Harris,

Don't worry... I am the go to stamp artist for my area - Finished one tonight. - I have an interest in seeing them still happen for significant events.
But I raised the point to illustrate the point... That there is cost and risk with each feature we add. Just questioning the why of what we often do.

Side question: do you think your interest in a tourney graphic disc is enough that you'd be willing to add, say 12-15 dollars selected at the time of online pre sign up to get said disc? (said disc in this case would be full color print to order, such as Dyemax or whatever equivalent all other manufacturers will add likely in near years to come. ). If the base entry cost was modest, but you could fill out your order with add ons. I.e. customization of experience.

This is the "Opt in" model that is becoming more logistically feasible due to online custom sign ups. Especially when paired with high attendance demand events, all opt in extras can be sign up collected, paid for, ordered, shipped, and ready for event day at check in. This handles the tshirt issue we've seen on this thread. Some players are driven by getting the shirt (momento and way to say they were there, others see it as garbage.)

 

[Broken Shoulder]

Harris,

Don't worry... I am the go to stamp artist for my area - Finished one tonight. - I have an interest in seeing them still happen for significant events.
But I raised the point to illustrate the point... That there is cost and risk with each feature we add. Just questioning the why of what we often do.

Side question: do you think your interest in a tourney graphic disc is enough that you'd be willing to add, say 12-15 dollars selected at the time of online pre sign up to get said disc? (said disc in this case would be full color print to order, such as Dyemax or whatever equivalent all other manufacturers will add likely in near years to come. ). If the base entry cost was modest, but you could fill out your order with add ons. I.e. customization of experience.

This is the "Opt in" model that is becoming more logistically feasible due to online custom sign ups. Especially when paired with high attendance demand events, all opt in extras can be sign up collected, paid for, ordered, shipped, and ready for event day at check in. This handles the tshirt issue we've seen on this thread. Some players are driven by getting the shirt (momento and way to say they were there, others see it as garbage.)

I like the opt-in at signup option.

 

[jrawk]

I agree with this. If this event I am planning wasn't the first ever sanctioned at our course, the player pack would be optional. The debate in this thread remains how and if TDs profit from amateur registration fees. I haven't seen anybody identify how TDs can get profit from strictly entry fees and maintain standard payouts without adding fundraising. Seems unsanctioned rounds run a higher risk.

 

[Harrishabitat]

Unlike some other people, I honestly respectably disagree with you. I think the opt-in model is a horrible path to go down.

The event is what the event is. The TD is the creator of the event thus its up to them to determine the details of the event. A good TD is going to take suggestions and critiques and adjust the event from year to year, but anyone that has run an event knows, if you have 70 players at your event...you will have 70 different suggestions on how to run the event.

The Opt-in model is just a train wreck waiting to happen. Once you open that can of worms you will never reign it in. It also creates a logistic nightmare day of the event on who paid for what. Plus you have to usually buy in quantity to be able to get custom discs.

In no other sport tournaments can the player dictate what part of the event they want to participate in... so my mentality, if you want to participate in an event, deal with it... plus if $15 makes the difference in being able to afford an event...then you shouldn't be playing anyways.

 

[Harrishabitat]

I agree with this. If this event I am planning wasn't the first ever sanctioned at our course, the player pack would be optional. The debate in this thread remains how and if TDs profit from amateur registration fees. I haven't seen anybody identify how TDs can get profit from strictly entry fees and maintain standard payouts without adding fundraising. Seems unsanctioned rounds run a higher risk.

Standard payouts can also be players packs, it doesn't have to be traditional payouts for the top players... Plus its retail value not cost...so there is profit there... But I honestly think TD's are bullied into giving everything by players that complain and threaten to not to play if they aren't given a unreasonable amount back to them in the form of payouts.

 

[Royal Hill]

Unlike some other people, I honestly respectably disagree with you. I think the opt-in model is a horrible path to go down.

The event is what the event is. The TD is the creator of the event thus its up to them to determine the details of the event. A good TD is going to take suggestions and critiques and adjust the event from year to year, but anyone that has run an event knows, if you have 70 players at your event...you will have 70 different suggestions on how to run the event.

The Opt-in model is just a train wreck waiting to happen. Once you open that can of worms you will never reign it in. It also creates a logistic nightmare day of the event on who paid for what. Plus you have to usually buy in quantity to be able to get custom discs.

In no other sport tournaments can the player dictate what part of the event they want to participate in... so my mentality, if you want to participate in an event, deal with it... plus if $15 makes the difference in being able to afford an event...then you shouldn't be playing anyways.

At one time I would have thought some of the same as far as customized sign ups would go. But the the thing that got me was the Vibram BB. Amazingly, I was presented two discs of my pre choosing (including firmness) and a t shirt (in my selected size no less) at check in. Wow! (of course i understand how and why it works) And it came with no upfront inventory risks by the event host. He never touched a bit of money, nor was he leveraged out either. He didnt have to guess how many xxxl vs womens xs shirt size players were going to show up. Crazy to think about. He could have hosted, and if only twenty had signed up, he'd have been just as safe risk wise as if 80+ did.
Just let's us know that interesting options are coming. (plus, I should mention that print to order custom screened discs don't require a die, and print and ship fast... Which can greatly reduce or near eliminate minimums. I expect competition will drive that even more economical over time to come)

And he who controls the online sign ups, controls the options...

I do know that "opt in" extras would have low utilization rates, by human nature. It is interesting though in that you'd see who really values what (compared to what they say) when one has to opt in.

But as we've seen, this isn't the main topic of this thread. However, I will add this as we see this thread chug on. I do believe in diversification in event models in any given community. I believe any goodly served DG community should have a mix. A few trophy only, a few charity, a few product promo, some with all the trappings, and maybe one big one - a crown jewel of sorts, where your community goes all out and tries to impress the tri state area.

As for any given event - as director you do hold the tools to do whatever you want. That's a wonderful thing.

 

[LukeButch]

I agree with this. If this event I am planning wasn't the first ever sanctioned at our course, the player pack would be optional. The debate in this thread remains how and if TDs profit from amateur registration fees. I haven't seen anybody identify how TDs can get profit from strictly entry fees and maintain standard payouts without adding fundraising. Seems unsanctioned rounds run a higher risk.

player X signs up for advanced at a 2 day C tier for $50

PDGA fees: $2
other fees, basic expenses like ob markers, flyers, etc: $5

$43 left: lets say TD chooses a Z plastic disc for payout- cost $6 wholesale, deducts $13 from that 43 for it. 30 left, pays out 2 discs that cost him half that.

payout:100%, TD profit: $22.

this meets PDGA standards, and is 100% payout

 

[LukeButch]

plus if $15 makes the difference in being able to afford an event...then you shouldn't be playing anyways.

your playing the wrong sport.


the future of any sport is in young people... for teenagers, college kids $15 difference IS ALOT. I know when I was in school I choose to play only events I could afford. We should be trying to attract youth, not price them out.

 

[Harrishabitat]

your playing the wrong sport.


the future of any sport is in young people... for teenagers, college kids $15 difference IS ALOT. I know when I was in school I choose to play only events I could afford. We should be trying to attract youth, not price them out.

Thank you for your opinion but I am not playing the wrong sport thank you very much. This sport can easily be played 99% of the time for free so no one is being priced out of anything. As for special events i.e. tournaments... my point was if $15.00 is a make it or break it for you, maybe you should save your money for more important things like...I don't know...food?

 

[paulw]

Blather away -- as long as we're mostly playing for each others' money little if anything will change.

TD/organizers for the most part, will continue to compete with each other to see who can give away the most $, time, products.

Players for the most part, will continue to not appreciate this.

 

[jrawk]

Standard payouts can also be players packs, it doesn't have to be traditional payouts for the top players... Plus its retail value not cost...so there is profit there... But I honestly think TD's are bullied into giving everything by players that complain and threaten to not to play if they aren't given a unreasonable amount back to them in the form of payouts.

player X signs up for advanced at a 2 day C tier for $50

PDGA fees: $2
other fees, basic expenses like ob markers, flyers, etc: $5

$43 left: lets say TD chooses a Z plastic disc for payout- cost $6 wholesale, deducts $13 from that 43 for it. 30 left, pays out 2 discs that cost him half that.

payout:100%, TD profit: $22.

this meets PDGA standards, and is 100% payout

Okay to me this is disc sales not a an extra profit margin built into registration. What I mean is if you are paying out funny money for an onsite vender, the TDs aren't making any profit, the vendor is. If the TD is the vendor then I guess that is profit, but that isn't entry fee profit like many claim to see happen. Or maybe I just read this entire thread wrong.

For example when we host non sanctioned tournaments like ace races, Discraft sells player packs for $20 and we charge $25, making a $5 profit. Or we charge $40 per doubles team and hold back $10 for course improvements.

 

[JC17393]

player X signs up for advanced at a 2 day C tier for $50

PDGA fees: $2
other fees, basic expenses like ob markers, flyers, etc: $5

$43 left: lets say TD chooses a Z plastic disc for payout- cost $6 wholesale, deducts $13 from that 43 for it. 30 left, pays out 2 discs that cost him half that.

payout:100%, TD profit: $22.

this meets PDGA standards, and is 100% payout

And what exactly is the problem?

Discraft's MSRP (that's Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price) for a Z-plastic disc is $15.99. That means that typically, if a person were to go into a disc selling establishment (or go online), they should expect to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $15-16 for a Z-plastic disc. Why, if Disc Nation or Marshall St or Gotta Go Gotta Throw or your local disc seller can mark that price on the disc without question, can't a TD value it likewise? Why does the TD have to be held to a different standard than any other disc seller?

The attitude that TDs need to be altruistic and selfless is something that is going to hold the sport back in the long run. In my mind, the way to build tournaments and particularly a true pro tour is to cultivate professional TDs. You can't cultivate professional TDs if you cut them off at the knees in terms of their ability to make money.

There are so many examples out there of popular and successful events (not DG) that got that way in large part because the organizers make money and roll it back into making bigger and better events. Spartan Race is a perfect example. The organizers there have only been doing it since 2001, and what they have now dwarfs anything we've ever seen in disc golf. Hundreds of people per event pay $60-100 to enter one of those things and what they get is a tee-shirt, a beer and medal for finishing, and the experience of getting the crap kicked out of them on an hour-long obstacle course.

Disc golf doesn't need to reach that kind of scale (for one, the overhead of running an event isn't quite as high), but certainly we need to get to a point where an event like Luke describes isn't considered an example of something wrong with the "system". If the TD ran an efficient high quality event in part because he had ~$20 per player to play with, or he can run bigger better events in the future because of that money, how is that a bad thing?

 

[LukeButch]

The attitude that TDs need to be altruistic and selfless is something that is going to hold the sport back in the long run. In my mind, the way to build tournaments and particularly a true pro tour is to cultivate professional TDs. You can't cultivate professional TDs if you cut them off at the knees in terms of their ability to make money.

on a Pro tour there will be no AMs playing to make profit from, and the TD will be paid solely from sponsorship money- sponsors who will gladly pay because this person will provide them a great venue to advertise their product.

the future tour isn't built around retailers who make money through disc sales, its built on spectators. Could you fill me in on how pocketing money from retail-wholesale price difference will lead to huge tournaments with lots of spectators?

As I said before I see nothing wrong with good TDs making a profit but I think your argument sucks. You talk of TDs rolling back their profit into bigger events, yet disc golf tournaments as a whole have been stagnant for 20 years. Yes, there are a ton more courses, tournaments and players now, but payouts(relative to entry fees) and sponsor money from outside disc golf haven't gone up much with the exception of very few tournaments. What we have clearly isn't growing huge tournaments that attract the outside sponsorship we all want.

 

[The Hammer]

I feel like you shouldn't be allowed to bitch about how tournaments are run unless you've actually done it yourself. It can be a very eye-opening experience.

 

[LukeButch]

http://www.pdga.com/what-happens-gcc-stays-gcc

"The amateurs will be playing for trophies only. Win or lose, they'll be taking home a ridiculous players pack, now valued at $240. There are plenty of other ways to take home some goodies as well. CTPs are available for all divisions on the first island hole, the player with the longest ace of the day will receive $100 cash, and a raffle is held with over $1000 of donated items as prizes already in the works"


this tournament keeps getting bigger and bigger year to year, yet no one is making any money from it. I don't understand!!

 

[The Hammer]

this tournament keeps getting bigger and bigger year to year, yet no one is making any money from it. I don't understand!!

How do you know that no one is making money from it?

 

[Thumber]

on a Pro tour there will be no AMs playing to make profit from, and the TD will be paid solely from sponsorship money- sponsors who will gladly pay because this person will provide them a great venue to advertise their product.

the future tour isn't built around retailers who make money through disc sales, its built on spectators. Could you fill me in on how pocketing money from retail-wholesale price difference will lead to huge tournaments with lots of spectators?

As I said before I see nothing wrong with good TDs making a profit but I think your argument sucks. You talk of TDs rolling back their profit into bigger events, yet disc golf tournaments as a whole have been stagnant for 20 years. Yes, there are a ton more courses, tournaments and players now, but payouts(relative to entry fees) and sponsor money from outside disc golf haven't gone up much with the exception of very few tournaments. What we have clearly isn't growing huge tournaments that attract the outside sponsorship we all want.

The lack of spectators and sponsors is on the pro side and has little to nothing to do with the AM side

If the "pros" were providing a spectacle that the public wanted to watch, then the sponsors would bring money into the sport. As far as I can see, the pros have not attracted either spectators or sponsors to any significant degree.

I know lots of DGrs think watching top talent play the game is absolutely amazing, but, to the general public, its still pretty lame, confusing and boring to watch.

I don't actually see DG ever breaking out as a mainstream, highly sponsored sport. I find the notion of "professional disc golfer" somewhat laughable.

What did the top pro make in actual profit last year? What did they net once traveling expenses were factored in? This is not a sport where you are going to make enough to live on, much less retire a millionaire after a 10-20 year career.