Wysoki vs. McBeth

[DiscLoser1]

What about 2015? Rick beat him then and McBeth wasn't straddle putting. And Rick was 8 strokes better than McBeth at The Vibram in 2014.

My point is that Rick can play in the woods.

Rick shot a 1091 rated 49 at last year's Green Moutain...Can play in the woods: confirmed.

He might have trouble with low ceiling full power backhands from time to time. But his backhand, or his confidence in it, is improved this year.

 

[araytx]

WOW!

What a place this thread has gone to!
I'm going to present the side of the "other" political party.

Wouldn't the fact that Paul was hurt impact this? I wonder if it is less that RW fades and more that Paul helps Ricky fade. McPressure. There is also the fact that Ricky may be hurt now. His ankle doesnt seem hurt, but no one has asked him. There is one other factor discussed here that may impact this, course structure. Ricky seems to do better on courses that allow big open throws and any kind of putting is fine. When Paul is chasing him in the woods, he seems to hit more trees.

For Paul, when he's chasing Ricky in the open he seems to push for too much distance and often enough winds up OB. That is Ricky pressure makes Paul's long drives more erratic.

So... if in 2016 Paul gets a minor injury that affects him for about 4-5 weeks, the McFanClub says it's a factor in how well he fares vs Ricky ... but in 2015 (the great YOMc) if Ricky gets T-boned in his vehicle a couple weeks before the GBO and can't really be himself for six months, there's no mention; it's just that Paul is just that much better than him (sarc).

I guarantee you Paul is not purposely trying to do this. Thats just not who he is. However if he sees something that he feels is wrong, or a rules violation he will say something. Many top pros have gotten away with ALOT over the years because people "dont want to be a dick" and disagree with them

True, but also, part of the game is playing within the rules, the notion that Paul is going after someone or anyone because he expects them to play by the rules is ridiculous. If a player makes the effort to know the rules and to obey them fully, it is in his best interests to hold the rest of the field to that standard. Otherwise, he's playing from a disadvantage. If other players can't stay within the rules and allow themselves to get upset when he asks them to, that's on them. Queue the conspiracies on all the times when Paul has broken the rules.

Really? If that's the place your hat is hanging on, then it would be true whether those rules work for you or work against you. I'd say it seemingly appears as though he believes that when it works to his benefit. Two examples -- 1) I don't have this as fact, but I've heard more than one quote Paul as saying, "I know Nikko uses too much time when he's putting, but I don't call him on it because I've found that the more time he takes the greater the chance is that he'll miss." 2) -- McProvisional disallowed -- knowing he should have been throwing five. Why not finished out both if you've called a provisional and write down both scores?

I'm not sure I'd call him the best player in the world. World Champion for sure, but best player in the world....

And yes, I know, for some winning the Worlds means your the best in the world. I wonder what the measure of best should be? For sure his record over the season makes a statement. As pointed out earlier, I might wait till the full end of the season before making a judgement.

I do agree, as I wrote upstream, Ricky has a feel for his game. He plays fast because that fits the feel thing. Slowing down would probably do more harm than good.

OK, current #1 ranked player in the World. (McBeth was quoted as "I'm #2 in the world now")

I got the main thrust of your point and foolishly went down the wrong track anyway. Sigh. Ricky has the great misfortune to be the second greatest disc golfer of all time at the same time the the greatest disc golfer is playing. Yep Ken, I went there. Of course Ricky has an age advantage. He may yet catch Paul and that will be fun to watch.

Really, Lyle, McBeth the GOAT??? After being a pro for 8 years, and he's the GOAT. :wall: I wouldn't call Ricky the second best of all time, either -- not yet. Paul doesn't even consider himself that. And I am with Ken Climo until someone gets at least 8 Worlds's, 2 or 3 USDGC's, and shoots an 1100-rated round in his 40s.

Most exciting to watch? Possibly. The Gale Sayers, Bjorn Borg, or LeBron James of all time? Maybe.

With his Worlds streak ending McBeth is going to crush the rest of the season, and another streak will begin.

Only time and 3 or 4 years will tell.

 

[tbird888]

You misquoted and misunderstood me.

 

[lyleoross]

McBeth wasn't there but Rick won there last year by 9 strokes, posting no round below 1051. That's pretty good.

Yes he he did, and he shot well on the wooded courses, but if recollection serves, not better than the field in the woods. There were a couple of players that tied him, a couple more one stoke behind. Where he put it away was on the open course where he shot four or five strokes better than the next player. That is consistent with my hypothesis that he is dominant on the more open courses. Not conclusive though.

 

[lyleoross]

Paul had a one-throw lead over Ricky going into the final round and lost by one throw. No significant difference.

Good point. In how many tournaments where Paul has a lead going into the final round, or where he catches Ricky in the final round, does Ricky go on to win? This is the only one I know of, may be more, and that makes me look closely at the scenario. You're correct, only a two stroke swing, but I wonder if that swing happens back on DeLa?

 

[lyleoross]

Araytx, you're the master of debate. The fact that Ricky was hurt has relevance, most certainly for his desire to be considered the best player in the world. A boring story if you will. Disc Loser, close your eyes, this will certainly annoy you. If you read on then I apologize.

I played up to 2010, then took off four years to coach my son's soccer teams. At that time Nate was the man, with possible challenges from Avery and an aging Dave Feldberg. When I came back the world was a rage with this young punk Paul McBeth. Paul earned that by being dominant over, at that point, over a three year period. Even then he was just a young punk in my mind. Then year four happened where he didn't do much, but the Innova marketing guys put out this grand slam disc and boy was that a bunch of halooee. What really impressed me was that there was this other guy who played darned near unconscious, laying the disc in with power and fitness, and yet Paul repeatedly caught or beat that amazing player. The battles between those two and the ability of Paul to stand up to that pressure and win impressed me. Paul's accomplishment is way less without the skill of Ricky Wysocki to measure it against. It takes something special to beat Ricky. This is why I put out the tongue and cheek comment about Ken. If Ken plays Ricky year in and year out I'm not sure he gets it done. In fact I'm darned sure even Paul is gonna take his knocks from Ricky.

Ricky has done great things this year. With a healthy Paul does it play the same? Who cares, what has happened has made this year exciting and means that the end and next year will be awesome for watching and debating.

Paul and the rules. It is my feeling that Paul calls and observes the rules better than most. At this point it is on Ricky to return the favor, and he should. "Hey Nikko, you're taking to much time. We wouldn't want Paul to get bored now."

Please note, in part I take the Paul side in this because the Ricky supporters are darned passionate, and very good debaters. Keeps me on my toes.

 

[lyleoross]

BTW, last year, in many ways I felt Paul didn't beat Ricky as much as Ricky made mistakes. Gonna be interestin' watching if Ricky eliminates those mistakes....

 

[tomte]

Just be glad and enjoy that we can see those two battle it out - with some sprinkles of Sexton and Nikko...

 

[araytx]

Araytx, you're the master of debate. The fact that Ricky was hurt has relevance, most certainly for his desire to be considered the best player in the world. A boring story if you will. Disc Loser, close your eyes, this will certainly annoy you. If you read on then I apologize.

I played up to 2010, then took off four years to coach my son's soccer teams. At that time Nate was the man, with possible challenges from Avery and an aging Dave Feldberg. When I came back the world was a rage with this young punk Paul McBeth. Paul earned that by being dominant over, at that point, over a three year period. Even then he was just a young punk in my mind. Then year four happened where he didn't do much, but the Innova marketing guys put out this grand slam disc and boy was that a bunch of halooee. What really impressed me was that there was this other guy who played darned near unconscious, laying the disc in with power and fitness, and yet Paul repeatedly caught or beat that amazing player. The battles between those two and the ability of Paul to stand up to that pressure and win impressed me. Paul's accomplishment is way less without the skill of Ricky Wysocki to measure it against. It takes something special to beat Ricky. This is why I put out the tongue and cheek comment about Ken. If Ken plays Ricky year in and year out I'm not sure he gets it done. In fact I'm darned sure even Paul is gonna take his knocks from Ricky.

Ricky has done great things this year. With a healthy Paul does it play the same? Who cares, what has happened has made this year exciting and means that the end and next year will be awesome for watching and debating.

Paul and the rules. It is my feeling that Paul calls and observes the rules better than most. At this point it is on Ricky to return the favor, and he should. "Hey Nikko, you're taking to much time. We wouldn't want Paul to get bored now."

Please note, in part I take the Paul side in this because the Ricky supporters are darned passionate, and very good debaters. Keeps me on my toes.

Thanks. Love ya, bro, and really like these discussions. But I did notice no mention of supporting your GOAT comment regarding Paul. I say there's still a long way for him to go to get close. Kenny was still winning Worlds at age 38, USDGC at age 39, and shot an 1117-rated, 24-hole round (which is much harder to do) at age 41. Still tied for 2nd best round ever.

 

[lyleoross]

Thanks. Love ya, bro, and really like these discussions. But I did notice no mention of supporting your GOAT comment regarding Paul. I say there's still a long way for him to go to get close. Kenny was still winning Worlds at age 38, USDGC at age 39, and shot an 1117-rated, 24-hole round (which is much harder to do) at age 41. Still tied for 2nd best round ever.

I have to admit, the goat comment escaped me, didn't get the drift of it. But that is likely because I'm old.

I don't deny that Kenny was the greatest, but like Babe Ruth, he was playing a different game than Paul/Ricky/ Hank Arron. Yep Barry was formidable, but he he doesn't bring the intensity of a Paul or Ricky challenge to my mind. Queue the offended Barry fans. And to be honest, I always preferred Barry to Ken, although I don't have a good reason for that.

As I've told you before, my favorite players are actually Nate Sexton (co-alumni), and Gregg Barsby. Which brings me to the second point you made, I wonder at the difference in the game today vs during Ken's heyday. The same as things have changed for other sports, they've changed here to. I have to wonder if Ken didn't have the advantage of a bygone era with less competition, Nate, Gregg, Nikko etc. He played when there were no real sponsored touring pros. A few guys went it on their own in RVs, but it was nothing like it is today.

I don't deny that Ken was great, but as I posted above, I think he wouldn't have it all his way if he was playing in a world of Ricky Wysockis, Paul McBeths, and others. I don't deny his high ratings and unique stats, but I do wonder how it would have been with Paul and Ricky and others breathing down his neck instead of just Barry.

 

[araytx]

I have to admit, the goat comment escaped me, didn't get the drift of it. But that is likely because I'm old.

I don't deny that Kenny was the greatest, but like Babe Ruth, he was playing a different game than Paul/Ricky/ Hank Arron. Yep Barry was formidable, but he he doesn't bring the intensity of a Paul or Ricky challenge to my mind. Queue the offended Barry fans. And to be honest, I always preferred Barry to Ken, although I don't have a good reason for that.

As I've told you before, my favorite players are actually Nate Sexton (co-alumni), and Gregg Barsby. Which brings me to the second point you made, I wonder at the difference in the game today vs during Ken's heyday. The same as things have changed for other sports, they've changed here to. I have to wonder if Ken didn't have the advantage of a bygone era with less competition, Nate, Gregg, Nikko etc. He played when there were no real sponsored touring pros. A few guys went it on their own in RVs, but it was nothing like it is today.

I don't deny that Ken was great, but as I posted above, I think he wouldn't have it all his way if he was playing in a world of Ricky Wysockis, Paul McBeths, and others. I don't deny his high ratings and unique stats, but I do wonder how it would have been with Paul and Ricky and others breathing down his neck instead of just Barry.

I appreciate your acknowledgement. And this is a similar argument in every sport. It might very well be true that Kenny wouldn't "have his way" in a world with Ricky & Paul. Might. Kenny may have been one of only a handful of sponsored touring pros in his day. The time he dominated was also a time of different equipment, different athletes, and different style of course design. There were not speed 8-9-10-11-12-13-14 overstable discs. Even Kenny, as a sponsored pro couldn't live full-time off of disc golf; and certainly the methods, equipment, and availability for athletic training & conditioning are way different today than in the 90's. Having seen a few things, I believe that had there been more courses with true par 4s & par 5s with landing zones, Kenny might have dominated even more. The fact that most courses were par-3-centric at least gave the competition a way to "get hot" and beat him every now & again. And like you said, if Paul & Ricky were in Kenny's world in his heyday, it would have been fun watching them trying to keep a DX Eagle inbounds against a gusty headwind. But those are things we won't see, that Ken was just better at because that was a necessary skill in his heyday. But the accomplishments, not just the number of Worlds & USDGC titles are unmatched. The year with 20-something 1st place finishes and a couple of 2nds -- ONLY! The consistency deep into his 30s. The 23 straight birdies to score the 1117-rated round (and, as I said, at age 41!). I will be in Kenny's camp for GOAT until someone matches a lot of those accomplishments.

And yes, there will always be people who'll say (today) Paul McBeth's skills at his best would beat Kenny's at his best. But when comparing across eras what is the right way to do that, other than our own personal & individual preferences? Who's the greatest quarterback of all time? Elway/P. Manning/Montana/Marino/Favre/Rodgers/Graham/Unitas/Brady? Or male tennis player? Sampras/Laver/Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Emerson? Or female? S.Williams/Graf/King/Court/Navratilova/Evert? Or greatest hitter in baseball? Bonds/Ruth/Aaron/T.Williams/Rose/Ichiro/Cobb? I personally look at how did the athlete dominate in his own era. That's not what everyone does, so I get that. The GOAT argument also might change in twenty years for the next generation -- just like the greatest QB argument.

 

[Ryan C]

And yes, there will always be people who'll say (today) Paul McBeth's skills at his best would beat Kenny's at his best. But when comparing across eras what is the right way to do that, other than our own personal & individual preferences? Who's the greatest quarterback of all time? Elway/P. Manning/Montana/Marino/Favre/Rodgers/Graham/Unitas/Brady? Or male tennis player? Sampras/Laver/Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Emerson? Or female? S.Williams/Graf/King/Court/Navratilova/Evert? Or greatest hitter in baseball? Bonds/Ruth/Aaron/T.Williams/Rose/Ichiro/Cobb? I personally look at how did the athlete dominate in his own era. That's not what everyone does, so I get that. The GOAT argument also might change in twenty years for the next generation -- just like the greatest QB argument.

It does, however, get exponentially more difficult to dominate your era when there is more and more and more competition. So if Paul was ever to manage to win half the World's titles Climo did, I'd consider that an even larger accomplishment, because the number of very skilled competitors is higher than ever. What we saw from Paul last season was probably even more dominant than Tiger Wood's best season, which is saying something... But then again, its more difficult to do what Tiger did than what Paul did for the same reason as above.

 

[BENFTS]

Ricky finally got hit title and it was becasue McBeth played like ****. Not to mention how soul crushing it is to get penalized 2 strokes the next day after someone watched the YouTube of his round. Good Job Ricky, you can only beat McBeth when his game is ****. I'm not saying Ricky sucks but watch those world rounds and tell me McBeth brought his A game. Ricky beat B+ Paul not A+ Paul.

 

[mgamache8]

^^^part of sports is bringing your A-Game everyday. The best team doesn't always win. But the best team(or player) THAT day will always win. I rooted for Paul the whole time, but Ricky played great, and deserved to win

 

[mgamache8]

And Ryan, I agree with you that athletes should be judged based on how dominant they are in their era. That's why I think wilt chamberlain is the best basketball player of all time, and why babe Ruth is the best baseball player. I don't care about the competition. If you are that much better than everyone you play against, than good for u. But now who can hit the modern 95 MPH fastball, Trout or Ruth? I'm going with trout. But that doesn't mean that trout is the best player ever(just an example). Same reason I think Climo is, and likely will always be, the best disc golfer ever. He just flat out destroyed everyone for over a decade. Until Paul can do that, Climo is still better. Even if prime McBeast could beat prime Climo(which by the way, he would).

 

[tbird888]

I don't know if he would or not. Paul's good, but you seem to underestimate The Champ's competition making a statement like that. Almost like he dominated for a reason.

 

[alfonseski]

Ricky finally got hit title and it was becasue McBeth played like ****. Not to mention how soul crushing it is to get penalized 2 strokes the next day after someone watched the YouTube of his round. Good Job Ricky, you can only beat McBeth when his game is ****. I'm not saying Ricky sucks but watch those world rounds and tell me McBeth brought his A game. Ricky beat B+ Paul not A+ Paul.

Good thing for Ricky Mcbeth rarely brought his A-game this year. Oh yeah, thats something called consistency.

 

[DiscLoser1]

Ricky finally got hit title and it was becasue McBeth played like ****. Not to mention how soul crushing it is to get penalized 2 strokes the next day after someone watched the YouTube of his round. Good Job Ricky, you can only beat McBeth when his game is ****. I'm not saying Ricky sucks but watch those world rounds and tell me McBeth brought his A game. Ricky beat B+ Paul not A+ Paul.

Dang, dude, that ****'s cold. Rick played great.

And ftr, McBeth watched the hole be played properly by card mates in 2nd round and self-reported his mis-play the next day. Someone watching on YouTube had nothing to do with it.

Edit: or 3rd round or whatever round it happened in...

 

[SD86]

And Ryan, I agree with you that athletes should be judged based on how dominant they are in their era. ..... Same reason I think Climo is, and likely will always be, the best disc golfer ever. He just flat out destroyed everyone for over a decade. Until Paul can do that, Climo is still better. Even if prime McBeast could beat prime Climo(which by the way, he would).

That's how it is in all sports: how to judge the 'best ever', a.k.a. GOAT. Usually one has to do it by comparing a person to those in his era, and see who is dominant. For example, in golf ball golf, with changes in equipment over the years, was Bobby Jones the best? Jack Nicklaus? Tiger Woods?

Baseball has the distinction of playing with exactly the same equipment since it started. The size of the baseball has not changed at all in nearly a century and a half of organized pro baseball. The field dimensions are roughly the same over all that era. So comparing players is easy.

In chess, the game has been the same since the late 1800s, but the availability of books, computers, etc. has changed the players. So who was best? J.R. Capablanca of the early 20th century, who didn't lose a game in nearly 25 years? Bobby Fischer, who won (without a draw) nineteen straight games against the world's best on his way to the World Title? Or Garry Kasparov? All dominated their competition of their eras.

In disc golf, Climo dominated on early equipment, but what was the sport itself at the time? Given the same equipment, would Tiger dominate Jack, or Jack dominate Tiger? Likewise, both in their prime with the best equipment, would Paul McBeth dominate Climo? I think he would. I think Climo was great, but just did not have the competition that McBeth has. IMHO Paul McBeth is to this point the 'best ever'. YMMV.

 

[wims]

Ricky finally got hit title and it was becasue McBeth played like ****. Not to mention how soul crushing it is to get penalized 2 strokes the next day after someone watched the YouTube of his round. Good Job Ricky, you can only beat McBeth when his game is ****. I'm not saying Ricky sucks but watch those world rounds and tell me McBeth brought his A game. Ricky beat B+ Paul not A+ Paul.

Yeah, but Ricky was bringing his b-game when Paul won all those titles in a row so it is whatever