Am world BAGGERS

[Three Putt]

Marc was allowed and he did decide on his own. The guy had (still has, I imagine) lots of natural ability. But between work and family, he just rarely had time to hone it, let alone get out and play a bunch of tournaments. I didn't blame him in the least for staying Am all that time. And BG was always his one weekend to get away from the wife and kids and have fun doing something on his own.

EXACTLY!!! Marc didn't do anything wrong. He played for fun, and BG was one of the few chances he had to do that. At one point his rating was over 1000 and people threw a fit that he was still playing AM. On paper he was a 1000 rated/Bowling Green Champion bagger, and I heard a lot of people who had never met him say awful things about him. In reality he was a talented player who had other obligations and played disc golf for fun. Can't we just let somebody do that without trashing them?

 

[HiFi]

The "Bagger here, bagger there, everywhere a bagger" mentality comes from our history. The PDGA didn't start allowing AM's to join to develop an Amateur base of players. They added AM's as a "future pros" division. It was all put in place to feed donors into the Open field. As soon as somebody played one good round, the Open guys would pat them on the back and say "time to move up." It wasn't time to move up and compete, it was time to move up and donate your entry fee to the Open division. If you didn't move up, you were a bagger. It was all a way to get more money for the Open guys to play for.

It didn't work out that way. There were a bunch of guys like me that knew that no way in Hell were we ever going to cash in Open so what was the point. We didn't move up to donate. The AM division swelled and the Open divisions stayed small. The Open guys kept yelling "bagger," but it didn't work.

The PDGA has tweaked things here and there trying to nudge people into the Open division. Allowing you to play down if your rating drops gives you a safety net. Raising the minimum rating on INT allowed a bunch of players that were donating in ADV to drop down, cutting the bottom half out of those huge ADV fields with the huge payouts from the mid 00's. All that was done to try to make those 970ish guys take a shot at Open.

It's not really working.

Disc golf payouts to AM's are so screwed up that it's hard to describe. People get so much stuff playing AM that there is no incentive to move up unless you are really driven by competition. A lot of us are not driven by competition. Disc golf is something we do for fun. If you are playing for fun, there is no way to make playing Open attractive when you can play AM, get a huge players pack and then win a bunch of discs. The only price you have to pay is listening to people call you a bagger, and that has never worked.

So we can look at a guys rating a call him a bagger. So what? Who cares? He doesn't. No one really ever has.

I understand where you're coming from, but isn't the point of joining a tournament... to compete? haha

 

[davetherocketguy]

Amidst this train wreck of a thread, was it ever stated or determined what's wrong with really good disc golfers not wanting to "go pro"?

Here's the problem as I see it (and I already covered this earlier but everyone ignored my insight :|): Going "pro" in disc golf isn't really "pro" at all. Pro to the rest of the planet means making money at it. If you aren't making money at it you aren't pro...but not disc golf. Pro means the next level up which is set by a rather arbitrary scoring system (which I don't yet fully understand) - whether or not you are making money at it. Pro needs to mean "making money at it" or it needs to be called something else. Our really good disc golfers need a place they can compete within the current system and have the option whether or not to "make money at it" or not without being referred to as a "bagger." Don't you think that if we keep calling these folks "baggers" and that might drive them off? The more great disc golfers we can get on the scene the better off all of us are - right?

 

[Three Putt]

I understand where you're coming from, but isn't the point of joining a tournament... to compete? haha

I get to decide at what kind of competition I want. Do I want to play Open and screw up some Pro's first round? Do I want to play Advanced and try to win some plastic? Do I want to play Masters and donate to guys my age? Do I want to play Advanced Masters and maybe win? I get options. What we are saying is these guys get no option. They get to play Open. Period. If they don't want to play Open? Tough. Seeing as this is really just their recreation time, they probably will just go do something else.

So I guess we are saying that running off players in the 970-1000 range that have other commitments and don't want to play Open is fine, 'cause those guys are losers and we don't like them anyway.

I guess this is the part where I name drop my degree in parks and recreation and mention there is a whole profession that deals with how and why people choose to do what they do with their recreation time. I think of disc golf in those terms, your disposable time you spend recreating. This is not like ball golf where you move up because it becomes your livelihood. This is what people do in their free time. Cutting off someone's options for participation is not a great way to get people to choose the option you are pitching.

 

[redwrath]

Going "pro" in disc golf isn't really "pro" at all. Pro to the rest of the planet means making money at it. If you aren't making money at it you aren't pro...but not disc golf. Pro means the next level up which is set by a rather arbitrary scoring system (which I don't yet fully understand) - whether or not you are making money at it.

Most sports (games) actually function this way. If you happen to see a darts league player at your local bar, he/she would indicate that the 'pro' designation has little to do with monetary income. Same with the vast majority of billiards, angling, softball, bowling leagues/tourneys, and other common pasttimes which are widely played/well established.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Most sports (games) actually function this way. If you happen to see a darts league player at your local bar, he/she would indicate that the 'pro' designation has little to do with monetary income. Same with the vast majority of billiards, angling, softball, bowling leagues/tourneys, and other common pasttimes which are widely played/well established.

That may be true but the use of the term "pro" is still incorrect. Again, if they aren't making money at it then it really isn't pro. I could be convinced that if one has all expenses taken care of to play a sport then yes, that might be a "pro."

Either the definition of the word needs to change or what we call top ranked players who aren't making any money needs to change. I vote for the latter.

 

[Three Putt]

That may be true but the use of the term "pro" is still incorrect. Again, if they aren't making money at it then it really isn't pro. I could be convinced that if one has all expenses taken care of to play a sport then yes, that might be a "pro."

Either the definition of the word needs to change or what we call top ranked players who aren't making any money needs to change. I vote for the latter.

Technically, they are called "Open" players.

 

[DavidSauls]

Technically, they are called "Open" players.

I believe they're classified as "Pro".

The top division is "Open", open to Pros & Ams. But the classification, once you've taken cash or signed up as such, is "Pro".

 

[steven2361]

Am world champions mean nothing to the sport. They are just the best at being average.

Yea.... That stings a little bit.

 

[HiFi]

Yea.... That stings a little bit.

Even the top am players are probably in the top 5% of all players, if not higher. Nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[steven2361]

Thanks for all the love I've received in this thread!

 

[chickenonabun]

Good Luck for the rest of Am Worlds. I know you probably don't need it now though. My Friend Sam Played with you last year (MXG I think) and said you were cool so I trust his judgment.

 

[1978]

Thanks for all the love I've received in this thread!

great job out there Stephen

 

[Ryan P.]

Has the OP posted in the last 480 posts?

 

[Nowski]

Thanks for all the love I've received in this thread!

keep it goin stooven. vk swagggin better not cross em

 

[SteezeOG]

EXACTLY!!! Marc didn't do anything wrong. He played for fun, and BG was one of the few chances he had to do that. At one point his rating was over 1000 and people threw a fit that he was still playing AM. On paper he was a 1000 rated/Bowling Green Champion bagger, and I heard a lot of people who had never met him say awful things about him. In reality he was a talented player who had other obligations and played disc golf for fun. Can't we just let somebody do that without trashing them?

Nope. Not around here. If you don't throw Innova you're a trendy hater and if you are rated 1000 you can't be playing Amateur events without catching hell. That should be mandatory learning for mod training.

 

[Fatbackbob]

In the past two years, I've supported Steven Jacobs and Barack Obama.

Good luck tomorrow...

 

[AndyJB]

So as soon as an actual player jumps in, everyone gives him props?

You all are a bumch of bitter a-holes. Execpt Hammer. He freely admts he has nothjng to gain with the points hes trying to make LOL

Seriously though, if this was in any way a REAL issue, why not put it to vote with the PDGA? Make them change the ratings caps. The reason it hasnt been done yet is because thia straight up is not an issue. It...is....not...an...ISSUE. anywhere.

Play your rating. Play up. Who gives a crap? They cant play DOWN so there is really no harm done here. I have yet to hereof someone, in this thread or otherwise, that just hung around playing Advanced and won every tournament he entered for five years straight with scores that would beat everyone in Open. Because this doesnt happen.

The huge point that ia being missed in this is that to win in Advanced, or have a rating even above 970, you have to be good. Damn good. It means your practice a lot and really are trying to get better. It generally means you have a goal in mind. You want to be a pro.

Forcing someone to move up before they are ready is petty, jealous, selfish bull****. Get over yourselves for one damn minute. I see guys moving up into divisions they have no right to be in all the time because people they know peer pressure them into it by calling them Sandbaggers. Its bull**** and it hurts the sport. Knock it off and follow the rules. If you sont like the rules, vote to change them. Otherwise, ****ing deal with it.

 

[DavidSauls]

Has the OP posted in the last 480 posts?

Yes, though I strongly recommend you avoid reading all 480 posts just to find his post. It's not worth it.

 

[DavidSauls]

@AndyJB

Excellent post.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the complainers aren't PDGA members, aren't going to be PDGA members, and thus can't vote to change the rules. Gripes is all they have.

Note that some, I believe The Hammer among them, aren't saying he should be forced to move up....only that he should be shamed into moving up.