Nikko LoCastro intimidating a PDGA official at European Open '22

[robdeforge]

The hill that I am willing to die on is that comparisons to other sports provide value to the conversation because touring disc golfers deserve to be recognized as professional athletes. If an organization is treating a class of people wildly different than industry standards it is worthy of public scrutiny.

Especially as the PDGA and DGPT take no half measures in promoting the tour as a professional sport.

I think it's interesting that your one comparison to a non-team sport infraction is Sergio Garcia throwing his shoe into a crowd of fans. not a good look, but I really don't see how that compares to what Nikko did

 

[dmoore1998]

The hill that I am willing to die on is that comparisons to other sports provide value to the conversation because touring disc golfers deserve to be recognized as professional athletes. If an organization is treating a class of people wildly different than industry standards it is worthy of public scrutiny.

What are you calling the "industry" though? Disc golf? Or professional athletes? Because there is no "industry standard" of how to treat professional athletes. It matters completely on the profile of the sport, which sport it is, the profile of the player, the profile of the professional organization, etc.

 

[prokebyt]

What are you calling the "industry" though? Disc golf? Or professional athletes? Because there is no "industry standard" of how to treat professional athletes. It matters completely on the profile of the sport, which sport it is, the profile of the player, the profile of the professional organization, etc.

The industry is sports entertainment and the class of people is professional athletes.

Industry standards are not formal rules administered by an entity, in legal terms it is the average by which those in a particular field govern themselves. While not a concrete standard courts of law make determinations on what industry standards are and make rulings based on those determinations.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-the-relevance-of-industry-standards-under-the-law-36794

Industry standards are subjective and my argument is that the PDGA rules are wildly outside the industry standards when it comes to the discipline of professional athletes.

 

[dmoore1998]

The industry is sports entertainment and the class of people is professional athletes.

Industry standards are not formal rules administered by an entity, in legal terms it is the average by which those in a particular field govern themselves. While not a concrete standard courts of law make determinations on what industry standards are and make rulings based on those determinations.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-the-relevance-of-industry-standards-under-the-law-36794

Industry standards are subjective and my argument is that the PDGA rules are wildly outside the industry standards when it comes to the discipline of professional athletes.

Which professional athletes though? The standards that professional athletes are subject to vary WILDLY. NBA superstar, minor league baseball prospect, professional darts player, etc.

What's the "average"? And what's the average treatment for a professional athlete who goes after a volunteer at a professional event while physically getting up in their face and yelling at them? Or what's the average treatment for going after an official in the same way? And which one is more relevant in this situation?

So what's the average treatment of all professional athletes in this situation? My guess is the answer is "I have no idea" or something equally vague...because that's pretty well an impossible question to answer.

 

[dashiellx]

I know under a literal interpretation of the rules it doesn't matter, but in real life and sportsmanship it matters a whole lot.

Sportsmanship is following the rules as written, not as we think they should be written, and not acting like a dbag when told you b.roke one.

 

[prokebyt]

Which professional athletes though? The standards that professional athletes are subject to vary WILDLY. NBA superstar, minor league baseball prospect, professional darts player, etc.

What's the "average"? And what's the average treatment for a professional athlete who goes after a volunteer at a professional event while physically getting up in their face and yelling at them? Or what's the average treatment for going after an official in the same way? And which one is more relevant in this situation?

So what's the average treatment of all professional athletes in this situation? My guess is the answer is "I have no idea" or something equally vague...because that's pretty well an impossible question to answer.

If your requirement is a literal average of every single infraction in professional sports then I don't know what to tell you. That is an intentionally obtuse standard.

Claiming it's impossible to parse Nikko's actions against an adequately representative sample of examples from other sports entertainment organizations is disingenuous.

I made my case in the article and it was plainly stated that incidents that receive bans over 50% of a season are either of another category of infraction altogether (gambling, doping, substance abuse etc.) or when in a similar category (anger/violence/intimidation), the standard is vastly higher and almost always involves and act of egregious violence and battery.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with that, but if you just throw up your hands and start from a place of assuming it's impossible to gain any value from the discussion then why are you even taking part in the conversation?

 

[auzcar]

I will add that Paul should show his displeasure by skipping any Euro Tour event going forward, as should the rest of the Americans. let them entrap their own.

Oh boy...

If the Americans will behave like Nikko and Paul then please do, we will be better off. Luckily this is not the case and there are plenty of Americans that can behave like an adult.

Either Paul is getting after the PDGA for whatever reason or he is simply not an intelligent person. Any reasonable person watching the video can see that his take on the situation is simply not true.

If we're ever going to start enforcing the rules we need to start somewhere, and starting at the most blatant and frequent rule breaker is a great and natural place to start.

 

[dmoore1998]

If your requirement is a literal average of every single infraction in professional sports then I don't know what to tell you. That is an intentionally obtuse standard.

Claiming it's impossible to parse Nikko's actions against an adequately representative sample of examples from other sports entertainment organizations is disingenuous.

I made my case in the article and it was plainly stated that incidents that receive bans over 50% of a season are either of another category of infraction altogether (gambling, doping, substance abuse etc.) or when in a similar category (anger/violence/intimidation), the standard is vastly higher and almost always involves and act of egregious violence and battery.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with that, but if you just throw up your hands and start from a place of assuming it's impossible to gain any value from the discussion then why are you even taking part in the conversation?

It's not impossible...I'm pointing out that you didn't do it.

 

[prokebyt]

So what's the average treatment of all professional athletes in this situation? My guess is the answer is "I have no idea" or something equally vague...because that's pretty well an impossible question to answer.

It's not impossible...I'm pointing out that you didn't do it.

You realize we can all see your posts, right?

Look, we disagree and that's totally fine. But I have no interest in a conversation of bad faith arguments and logical fallacies.

 

[Countchunkula]

^Definitely don't engage with ballgolfconvert in that case.

 

[Muddyboots]

The whole thing stinks to high heaven if you ask me.

I am 100% sure that nobody here did this.

 

[roblee]

You realize we can all see your posts, right?

Look, we disagree and that's totally fine. But I have no interest in a conversation of bad faith arguments and logical fallacies.

Welcome to the forums. At least they aren't name calling, yet. Your UW article is interesting & well written. I've thought about suspension impacts for top pros but you present some really thought provoking ideas.

You bring a great dynamic to the forum so I hope you're not discouraged and will continue to contribute to this and other discussions.

 

[davetherocketguy]

The great thing about the Utiliworld article is it exposes who has experience with a career in the real world. This is how it works in the real world kiddos: If I go up to my supervisor (or any coworker for that matter), get right in his face and start yelling I get fired. Immediately. There is no 9 month suspension. No probation. Just buh-bye. Why in the world is the PDGA obligated to consider Nikko's financial status? He's not even their employee.

...and if you believe the internet Nikko is worth somewhere north of $600k. If true...either sponsorship pays better than I thought or home boy is a trust fund kid. Yeah he'll survive this suspension just fine.

 

[roblee]

A question for prokebyte: How would you compare PDGA sanctions & resultant revenue impacts to a state athletic commission &/or USADA?

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

I have to disagree fully with the sad violins playing for his lost income. If he makes no money during this suspension, that's his fault. He could hire on at any one of dozens of factories around me and make $20 an hour right this minute. Like, literally, interview now and start tonight on 3rd shift.

He ****ed up his ability to make money playing Frisbee for a living for the next nine months. Boo hoo. Maybe this will teach him to not be such an *******. Come on out and get a real job and see how you like it, bub!

 

[BogeyNoMore]

From the Ultiworld article:

...the PDGA disciplinary process is not equipped to equitably administer punishments to the touring professional class of members. Nikko is being punished under a policy that has drastically different consequences for different membership classes that commit similar actions. On paper, the punishments are the same, but this understates the real-world impacts of the rulings.

If I behaved in a similar manner, a 9-to-24 month suspension feels appropriate — especially since suspension is the only tool the organization would have to punish me. The PDGA has no ability to enforce a fine on me or disrupt my income. I love the competition and would miss it dearly, but I'd still have my livelihood and my work relationships: the consequences wouldn't bleed into every aspect of my life. The deliberations of the Disciplinary Committee are not public, and the Committee may have attempted to incorporate the professional ramifications while considering his punishment, but even if that is true, nine months is too long and excessively punitive.

This is not an argument that professionals deserve a lesser punishment for similar behavior, but when the punishment involves being barred from practicing your career, a suspension is exponentially more punishing and the length of that suspension requires more precision than a scale based only on months. The economics of sports entertainment lead to natural monopolies where professional athletes in all sports make the decision to invest thousands of hours over many years into training skills that are largely non-transferrable to other methods of monetization.

Seems the scale for suspension time is likely based on a metering justice for the amateur divisions, and an antiquated model from a time when pro players had to supplement their income with something other than disc golf.

But professional disc golf has evolved, and with today's sponsorships, tourney pots, there's a lot more at stake. Seems the disciplinary committee should evolve with it.

Bottom line is Nikko did this to himself, but I do think the suspensions are far more punitive to touring pros than they are to the masses.

 

[txmxer]

Fact is, if they can get away with bad behavior, then some will take advantage of that leniency.

There are references to other sports that are more lenient and then there are people that cross those boundaries.

If you want to pander to athletes or famous people because they are "special", I could not disagree more.

If he just threw a temper tantrum, I'd be more sympathetic. Posturing up on the official followed by the reports of continued antagonism crossed a line.

Seems most agree discipline was appropriate. DQ. Suspension? "Should have been 3.2 months." Should have been silver series? Wait, what???? How does that make ANY sense at all? Regardless, that's all noise.

He could have gotten 24 months. Seems to me he should be grateful it wasn't more.

 

[Hampstead]

BogeyNoMore
Bottom line is Nikko did this to himself, but I do think the suspensions are far more punitive to touring pros than they are to the masses.

I'll only say the touring pros can still make money from various sources including YouTube content and clinics that is unavailable for most of the average or recreational disc golf masses. I'm not concerned for Nikko's ability to earn an income. Unless he has absolutely no motivation. Which, of course, is his problem and not that of the PDGA.

 

[ru4por]

Again we get back to this idea of the volunteer officials and the slippery slope. So if a agree to be an official and I have some beef with Dynamic Discs, can I make crap-ass calls against Dynamic-sponsored players with the idea that the players HAVE to listen to and respect me? Acting like the officials could never be in the wrong and giving the players zero protection might be why McBeth seems to always come down on the side of the players.

I just don't see agenda driven, volunteer officiating as a potential issue. I am hoping nearly all volunteer help, at that level, would be interested in seeing the right thing done. Maybe naive, but maintain that officials, provided as authority, in an event deserve to be seen as just that. I am not one to condone arguing and mistreating refs, umps, judges or officials in any sport. It is a bad look and is not likely to sell well. Perhaps an appeal process for your concerns of abuse of "power"?

 

[txmxer]

Most everyone here has kids. What do you tell your kids? You can't control what everyone else does, only what you do.

Should we have lower expectations of adult athletes than we do of our children?