Red-Hot Memorial Action -or- Who Will Barry Punch Next?

[black udder]

Volunteers don't have the equipment and internet capabilites to pull this off even if everyone else not owning and operating the equipment was a volunteer. If not enough people are ready to pay even $10 to build this effort, there's little chance of increased purses from sponsorship and any coverage on cable or networks any time soon.

What I meant by volunteer effort was the "please make a donation" like the USDGC. I'm sure it cost a bunch of money to do that, but in all honesty, you have to deliver a reasonable product and for $10, what I saw wasn't worth it. I'd rather buy a dvd and see the lead card play than drop $10 or more and see a handful of hopefuls trek through a couple holes and listen to a few guys chatting.

I applaud the effort, but it's just not ready for prime time yet. And, for me, if it takes another 10-20 years, I'm willing to wait. I don't need this sport to be at the level of the others. I'm quite happy where it is now.

 

[JR]

I'm not sure I fully understand this. The email said they need 2000 people signed up by some date, and it costs 20 bucks? That's $40,000. Is that really how much it costs to get some cameras set up to watch 2 holes of action? Won't these costs be covered by advertising revenue? Help me to understand this.

HELL NO!!! wit that kind f money me and the usual suspects from Tali Open '09 and European Open would cover the European Tour and USDGC plus maybe a few other events in the States. Seriously. Give us the money and we'll do it. Even if nobody does it watch out for us in 2010 and support your jaw. That's a promise.

 

[mark12b]

I'm not sure I fully understand this. The email said they need 2000 people signed up by some date, and it costs 20 bucks? That's $40,000. Is that really how much it costs to get some cameras set up to watch 2 holes of action? Won't these costs be covered by advertising revenue? Help me to understand this.

setting aside the issue of how much of the $40k is cost, how much is fair compensation, and how much is greedy ol' profit... why would you expect advertisers to spend that much for such a tiny audience?

My thought on this was...make it free so you can use it as a good marketing tool to attract sponsors. Also...if you are wanting to reach out to people outside the dg world, then charging $9.99 isn't going to do that.

hm, i'd say that (a) trying to produce something like this with zero budget would not result in a good marketing piece, and (b) the fact that they're charging for it indicates that this particular effort isn't intended to reach out to a larger audience.

 

[nohr]

Give me a dvd copy of the coverage for $10 or $20 and you have a deal. I like many people would like to watch the whole thing but there is no way I can commit 3 workdays to watching it live.

 

[SkaBob]

There's no reason to offer live coverage of a sporting event until it's gotten enough interest to demand it.

Better to offer evening coverage of the day's best rounds for that via streaming video, and a useful discount (ie- $10 off) of the DVD.

 

[SpikeHyzer]

If not enough people are ready to pay even $10 to build this effort, there's little chance of increased purses from sponsorship and any coverage on cable or networks any time soon.

I know you don't speak for the pdga...but this statement sounds like the pdga doesn't want to pony up the dough in order to create a good marketing tool. If the pdga would put their money where their mouth is, the sport could be so much better off. I think they need to take the initiative to openly broadcast an event over the internet for free ala USDGC(And not require you to register a user account). You will reach a wider market of people with it, than if you are charging people $10 to watch it on and off.

 

[what'shisname]

I'm not sure I fully understand this. The email said they need 2000 people signed up by some date, and it costs 20 bucks? That's $40,000. Is that really how much it costs to get some cameras set up to watch 2 holes of action? Won't these costs be covered by advertising revenue? Help me to understand this.

HELL NO!!! wit that kind f money me and the usual suspects from Tali Open '09 and European Open would cover the European Tour and USDGC plus maybe a few other events in the States. Seriously. Give us the money and we'll do it. Even if nobody does it watch out for us in 2010 and support your jaw. That's a promise.

I would much rather pay to see footage from these guys than anything else I've seen so far. Their stuff is far and away the best coverage of disc golf out there at the moment. Watching the couple holes at USDGC live was cool and all, but like others.... I can't realistically set aside 3 work days to do it.

 

[SkaBob]

The more I ponder this, the more I think LIVE coverage is the biggest part of the problem, here. It doesn't work well for the schedules of people who would be willing to pay to watch, it requires a costly internet uplink on-site in places that it's really not convenient or cost-effective to have one, and it requires that the production be done in a shabby way, since any editing and fancying up of the video would have to be done live, by people with less budget for equipment and less experience than the people who cover live sporting events on television.

I think really, this is a case of whoever's in charge of this video trying to be bigger than they really are.

Nobody in the disc golf community would mind seeing the video from this coming out days, even a week or more after the event, if it looked good.

Nobody that isn't interested in disc golf videos is going to have any respect for what can be done on a shoestring budget for live coverage.

There won't be nice on-screen graphics, there won't be commentary (no less good commentary - and this is something that all disc golf video productions need to work on), the video quality will be crap because it'll be scaled down to optimize it for the number of connections they're trying to get over the paltry internet connection you can drag out to the sticks where there's no fiber hookup, there won't be commercials (no less well produced ones), there won't be bits helping people who aren't disc golfers to understand what they're watching (which would be a great way to use the time between cards/shots on screen), it'll look like public access cable TV with Jim-Bob and Leroy talking about some guys walking around in the woods throwing frisbees and using the $20 on-screen graphics stuff that came with their camcorders.

Meanwhile they could save what'll probably be thousands of dollars not running some godawful internet connection (anyone that's dealt with this sort of internet hookup knows how ungodly slow the speeds are, espcially the upstream required to serve the data live), and not have to deal with scaling the video down to postage stamp low-res to handle more than 10 people watching it at a time. They're not likely to see more than the same kind of upstream you see from a cablemodem with the kind of money they're going to want to throw at this, and you seriously can not serve live, streaming video to more than 5-10 people at any respectable resolution on those connections. At best, they'll run a single link to a multiplexer off-site for people to stream from, but that's still an un-necessary cost when they'd be able to do a better, less amateurish job if they just put videos up for download in the evening or at the weekend or something.

Myself, I won't be paying for it as-is, but if they did it like I suggest and produce a DVD and use my $10 to discount my purchase of the DVD, they'd see great success from my money, as well as many other people.

I think they'll be pretty pissed when they see how many people demand their money back (if they even get anyone to pay) once those people realize what they're actually paying for.

Nothing kills the success of something quicker than doing it horribly wrong the first time.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I know you don't speak for the pdga...but this statement sounds like the pdga doesn't want to pony up the dough in order to create a good marketing tool. If the pdga would put their money where their mouth is, the sport could be so much better off. I think they need to take the initiative to openly broadcast an event over the internet for free ala USDGC(And not require you to register a user account). You will reach a wider market of people with it, than if you are charging people $10 to watch it on and off.

The PDGA has already underwritten much of the expenses for the USDGC coverage and is continuing to do so with this effort for the Memorial and potentially more events if enough people respond. The USDGC effort was still a money loser, even more so if some of the people involved would have been paid market value for their efforts. So, this Memorial effort continues to be a "money where your mouth is" media test. If it fails, it just indicates the lack of interest in viewing disc golf events for even a below market price from the potentially core viewing audience.

BTW, I doubt that any of the DVDs out there including the Clash series have ever broken even for the producers if all costs and true value of services provided were included. I know the USDGC DVDs haven't recovered costs. Marshall Street and Prime video content production and editing has all been done free and would have cost $15K-$20K each if a video firm was hired to do them.

So it's still a joke to consider even the proposed non-realtime DVD efforts sold for $10-$15 as economically viable alternatives to these live coverage attempts. But I do agree that it's weird to attempt live coverage on weekdays versus weekends when more people might be able to watch. But then that's when disc golfers would rather be playing than watching, especially since not much daylight would still be available after work until mid-March. On the other hand, many people may have higher speed connections where they work, not that the bosses want people to be doing things like watching live video feeds.

 

[Vegan Ray]

Marshall Street and Prime video content production and editing has all been done free and would have cost $15K-$20K each if a video firm was hired to do them.

BS. I am intimately aware of bids put into the org for World's DVDs enumerating MUCH less than that for production & editing. The org continues to choose to stick with the good ol' status quo & cost itself (i.e., the members) a fortune.

There may be some ridiculously overpriced video firms out there that would charge that much, but a diligent consumer needs not pay anywhere near $20,000!

 

[Cgkdisc]

Worlds DVDs starting around 2004 finally started making money after taking about 2-3 years for payback. So the PDGA has not lost on those video projects that cost around $30,000 each year to produce. The one or two slightly lower bidders over the years for doing the Worlds DVD have apparently not demonstrated the expertise and capability to do the appropriate work or they would have been selected for the job. I was only involved with helping select the PW2007 DVD bidder as TD so I don't know about other years.

 

[Vegan Ray]

Worlds DVDs starting around 2004 finally started making money after taking about 2-3 years for payback. So the PDGA has not lost on those video projects that cost around $30,000 each year to produce. The one or two slightly lower bidders over the years for doing the Worlds DVD have apparently not demonstrated the expertise and capability to do the appropriate work or they would have been selected for the job. I was only involved with helping select the PW2007 DVD bidder as TD so I don't know about other years.

Not slightly lower, Chuck, dramatically lower. And, you're right, the other DVDs that this company produces don't "demonstrate the expertise and capability to do the appropriate work". They're only the benchmark by which other disc golf DVDs are judged. :roll:

 

[SkaBob]

If it fails, it just indicates the lack of interest in viewing disc golf events for even a below market price from the potentially core viewing audience

So, wait, if I do something horribly badly at every step of the way, and nobody pays me a profitable amount for it, that speaks about the lack of consumer interest, rather than the lack of proper handling of the project?

Sorry, no, that's Business/Econ/Marketing 101 level common sense stuff. If you do it the wrong way, you can't assume it's the market's fault that you didn't make money off of it.

Take for example a video game. E.T. the Extra Terrestrial for the Atari 2600. It's widely (almost unanimously) regarded as the worst video game of all time. It's sales were so poor the surplus millions of cartridges are buried underneath an airport runway because they couldn't think of any other place to dispose of them. It's negative reception was so strong it almost killed the entire video games industry.

Does that mean that there was a lack of consumer interest in video games?

Video games are one of the most profitable industries in the world. You just have to make a good one to make any money off of it.

There comes a point at which the PDGA should ask it's members if any of them would be willing to volunteer expertise in these affairs rather than stumbling about as a bunch of people who haven't the foggiest idea what they're doing and hoping they make something good. If that call would've gone out to the membership, I would've been more than willing to volunteer my expertise with regards to the technical aspect of the production - and I happen to have at my disposal several friends with a wealth of professional video production experience that would be more than willing to help out as well...The PDGA's membership could've helped them not waste all the money they're throwing away on these half-cocked video events and DVD productions.

edit:

Now that I think about it, where are you getting your figures for what "market price" is for viewing a sporting event streaming online?

You can watch NHL games live on their website for a nominal fee ($23.95/month to view any/all the games you want live, plus archived games and footage).

How is $10 for a single live event below that?

You can watch unlimited numbers of movies and TV shows online at sites like HULU, Netflix, and soon Youtube for less than $20/month.

How is $10 for a single video event below that?

Disc Golf DVDs far better than the ones you guys paid so much for (and veganray is right, btw.) sell for $15-20 online and you get to watch them over and over and over 'til your heart's content. Are you guys planning on selling the DVD for $20 on top of the $10 that people will have paid to watch online?

If you sell it for more than $5 to people who paid to watch online, you're still not "below" market value.

Occam's Razor says it's far more likely the PDGA adminsitration is too out of touch to pull off a streaming video event or DVD release properly than it is that the market doesn't exist to view or purchase them.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I believe PPV can run $10 on cable or satellite and that's just one viewing of a 2-hour movie that was usually already profitable.

The people involved in these live productions are top notch and have done it for other sports. They are trying to help the PDGA see if live coverage is viable by lowballing their services as a test. This is like the early days of television. If you wanted to see what was going on, you had to spend a bunch of money for a TV in 1950 dollars.

Anyone spending $10 for live coverage at the Memorial (or $20 after Feb 5th) is hoping the investment is worthwhile in the long run for continuing and increasingly better coverage. If not enough players are willing to invest then prospects for live coverage to develop and improve will just be delayed if it ever will be viable. No ESPN is going to come in and do it for a $10 subscription without a 10,000 person guarantee. I think you can get a 30-minute show for around $100,000 paid to ESPN (that doesn't include costs for shooting and editing the show) which is how they've done it for bass championships from what I understand with advertisers footing the bill.

 

[ChUcKyZ]

So, this Memorial effort continues to be a "money where your mouth is" media test. If it fails, it just indicates the lack of interest in viewing disc golf events for even a below market price from the potentially core viewing audience.

Charge people ten to twenty per head to view the next Knicks-Lakers game on crappy live internet feed, see how many takers you get. I'll bet you don't even need to remove your shoes to sum up the grand total.

It sounds to me like there wasn't enough effort/success selling time to advertisers.

 

[black udder]

I've got a couple of the Worlds DVDs, the Clash DVDs and a couple USDGC DVDs. I like them all. the Clash & USDGC mostly.

The work done on the Tali Open and European Open is every bit as good and done by (I believe) fans (albeit talented ones). The only think lacking is the commentary. They had much better shots due to multiple cameras, slow motion shots. It was truly great stuff.

I'd much rather the PDGA threw a handful of money at those guys to fly 'em over here and film a nice big tournament than continue with what we have done.

I agree with Bob in that just because nobody wants to pay for live coverage during 3 weekdays doesn't mean that there isn't an interest. I do believe that the interest is going to be small though. Not everybody who plays DG is interested in watching it and not that many people play to start with, so the audience is going to be much smaller.

 

[Timko]

I think disc golfers are the main market demographic to sell disc golf stuff to right now. I'm not sure how many people outside of the sport would pay for event coverage. As for sponsors, who should the PDGA target? I've long been skeptical of how much cash disc golf companies donate to events. After the World Championships last year, I'm pretty sure that event sponsorship from the major companies comes in the form of goods, not liquid assets, which is what we're seeing with the internet coverage.

 

[ChUcKyZ]

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Keen Footwear.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Target.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Home Depot.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Insert Random Cash Cow Here.

Get to work, marketing director.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm not saying the effort will be successful or if it's even worth it for $10. That's for the market to decide. Just explaining what it's about which is a pioneering effort to see if even the core disc playing audience will pay to watch. Disc golfers haven't shown that they want to be spectators even for free over the years so I would be skeptical that this idea has much chance. But I do give them credit for doing what they can on a shoestring budget to provide live coverage to see where the viewing potential currently is for the sport. If it's not there then pros should not expect to see much if any increase in sponsorship for events and in fact see it drying up as sponsors become disillusioned with the lack of audience for disc golf. Better to find out now rather than continuing to throw good money after bad so it can be directed in ways that expand and improve the sport for everyone such as more school development.

 

[Timko]

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Keen Footwear.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Target.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Home Depot.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Insert Random Cash Cow Here.

Get to work, marketing director.

Let's leave Keen out of the discussion right now, since they've donated product to be given away.

Why should Target or Home Depot sponsor this?