USDGC coverage

[JTacoma03]

I typed out a long post responding to lyle, but it's just not worth it. There's too much misinformation to unpack. People will believe what they want. Unfortunately an honest dialogue is really tough these days because the truth isn't as sexy of a scandal, so some people refuse to believe it. Oh well.

I apologize for contributing more to this beating of the dead horse, I can't help myself sometimes. Now getting back to editing. We're going to hit 20 million views this month, just hit 60k subs, and we're making strides towards one of my personal goals which is to give talented people an honest chance to make disc golf media a viable and sustainable career. We continue to set media milestones in this sport, and we continue to contribute to giving these athletes opportunities to grow their fanbases (and their paychecks) through exposure as well as career opportunities. We've done this with 0 full time staff members, and we're the youngest channel of the major players.

I'm genuinely sorry some people didn't like one decision, and I'm even more sorry that a false version of what happened has become the main narrative. If you think anything we're doing is malicious, I can assure you it's not. If you think we're 'mismanaging' then start your own channel and take us down. There's just too much good in the future, it's too bright, and we've got too much positive momentum to continue going around about this.

 

[GoldeyeGolf]

I typed out a long post responding to lyle, but it's just not worth it. There's too much misinformation to unpack. People will believe what they want. Unfortunately an honest dialogue is really tough these days because the truth isn't as sexy of a scandal, so some people refuse to believe it. Oh well.

I find this extremely lame, Jamie-I've never known you to be at a loss for words, so type it out and let the validity of your argument fend for itself.

 

[Alobar]

Can we get a thumbs down button?

Lyle, stop repeating what you think you know as fact. I know you love posting on every thread in here, but please give it a rest.

And now you're assigning your fake news to Jamie, instead of the DGWT. Jamie did not make those decisions.

 

[lyleoross]

Can we get a thumbs down button?

Lyle, stop repeating what you think you know as fact. I know you love posting on every thread in here, but please give it a rest.

And now you're assigning your fake news to Jamie, instead of the DGWT. Jamie did not make those decisions.

Wow, I, I, I've been Trumped. You do realize that when someone calls something fake news, typically there's real evidence that it's not fake, right?

But you are correct, I did attribute DGWT to Jamie, my bad. Let's try again.

Jamie, was the PDGA asked if they were still willing to pay for live? Also, what about the numbers I posted was misinformation, ie fake news? Please enlighten us.

 

[Golden Tuna]

^^^
Just let it go & be grateful for what we have!
Didn't your parents ever teach you, " if you don't have anything nice to say, keep your mouth (keyboard) shut!

 

[lyleoross]

^^^
Just let it go & be grateful for what we have!
Didn't your parents ever teach you, " if you don't have anything nice to say, keep your mouth (keyboard) shut!

Yes they did. I am grateful for what we have, but I'm not much for bs. As I wrote earlier, some guys, Harold and Steve for example are good at discussing errors, rational and approaches. Some aren't. Jamie has stated his logic for a decision made. I'm simply pointing out that his logic isn't as tight as he's stating it is. Now, at no time have I attacked Jamie directly. At no time have I asked about his upbringing or manners. I've simply asked questions, legitimate ones given Jamie's position.

 

[Alobar]

Yes they did. I am grateful for what we have, but I'm not much for bs. As I wrote earlier, some guys, Harold and Steve for example are good at discussing errors, rational and approaches. Some aren't. Jamie has stated his logic for a decision made. I'm simply pointing out that his logic isn't as tight as he's stating it is. Now, at no time have I attacked Jamie directly. At no time have I asked about his upbringing or manners. I've simply asked questions, legitimate ones given Jamie's position.

What you fail to realize is that no one involved owes you any answers.

You are not owed Live coverage.

I know you were previously involved in the PDGA (and thank you for that) but that holds no weight in current matters.

Debate all you want, and stick with your angry narrative, but the rest of us will enjoy what we get, and I appreciate all that these guys do on all levels of the tours and media production.

 

[josephreese]

Are there enough camera crews to make a live feed watchable? If there's only 1 crew (following the main/lead card, I assume) there would need to be a lot of filler between throws. What fills that time? Probably not live play, and I won't be watching a several-hours live feed if most of what I'd be watching is filler. Two crews might be enough, 1 each for the lead and chase cards. Even with that arrangement I imagine there'd be a lot of dead time.

 

[dorseymatt]

I'd just like to mention how excellent Nate and Jerm's commentary is. They are the gold standard and only getting better.

 

[JC17393]

Are there enough camera crews to make a live feed watchable? If there's only 1 crew (following the main/lead card, I assume) there would need to be a lot of filler between throws. What fills that time? Probably not live play, and I won't be watching a several-hours live feed if most of what I'd be watching is filler. Two crews might be enough, 1 each for the lead and chase cards. Even with that arrangement I imagine there'd be a lot of dead time.

DGPT events had a very good way of filling dead time (aside from commercials). They filmed the FPO lead card earlier in the day and ran that footage, typically after tee shots while the players walked the fairway to where their throws landed.

Obviously that wouldn't be an option at USDGC (no FPO division) but perhaps a couple stationary cameras on particularly holes. Hole 17 would be a great one at Winthrop...just cut away to whatever group is throwing that hole when needed.

I'm always amused by the concerns about dead time and no action with live coverage. No one seems to complain about the lack of action on an NFL broadcast (just to pick a popular televised sport). For a 3-3.5 hour broadcast, there's really only about 15-20 minutes of total action. The rest is players returning to the huddle, going on and off the field, refs discussing/announcing penalties, and of course, delays for replay review. And let's not forget the countless commercial breaks.

That's not to say live coverage can't be improved, of course it can. But even the basic coverage we get now has elements that some might call bugs, but others see as a feature. Personally, I like the slow build drama of seeing the round play out in real time rather than on fast-forward, even if there are some dead spots along the way.

 

[frasnow]

Jussi's words

Does anyone remember the Insider Show from the 2015 European open? :thmbdown: At least we actually get to watch tape-delayed USDGC action this year. People have been fighting with Jussi Meresmaa and Jaime Thomas for a while about their vision for disc golf coverage. It got so heated that back in 2015 they "agreed that [they] are not going to comment on this forum anymore."

Jamie continues to fight with us

keyboard warriors

But here are Jussi's final words on the subject:

Okay folks, Couple of points from the event managers side.

We are concentrated to make worlds best events. We take this seriously. Our goal is to showcase this great sport of Disc Golf to all people, not just hardcore fans. This strategy requires different approach. Our course and facilities are built to take up to 5,000 spectators on-site on Championship Sunday. We had 2,000+ at the Presidents Cup.

About Media rights. If you study them, you can see that we are not asking money for YouTubers to cover our event. Money was not the case with lgcm8.

We are not making play-by-play videos from Rounds 1-3. We are concentrating to make The Insider Show as good and enjoyable as possible. This is a completely new format we go for.

Sunday, we will have 29-person crew to make National TV-broadcast and 10+ person crew to make The Insider Show. Along with that we have 3 person online media crew. That is more media coverage and personnel than ever in Disc Golf tournament (I know). We are talking about well over $50,000 investment for these medias and coverages. Our long-term plan is to expand the sport, not cater only the hard-core fans. It not realistic that someone would watch 4-hours of slow-pace play-by-play and get hooked to this. Do not get this wrong - we still love you guys.

I know it sucks when you cannot see all the shots from all the players (or your favourite player) but our strategy and target group this week is different. I wish you enjoy our productions and you are able to follow this amazing event. We will make traditional SpinTV tournament coverage video from the Final Round. That´s going to be huge.

If you want to give us a feedback, please do it here in our official feedback form: http://www.opendiscgolf.com/2015/07/21/give-us-your-feedback/

We surpassed our media reach goals. There were 259,000 live TV-audience which is app. 100 times more than regular DG stream audience. Most of those 259,000 people are not Disc Golfers giving us a huge opportunity to introduce this great sport to them. YLE was extremely happy with our TV ratings. Also, our commercial partners were happy. After the event, we have already got interesting proposals for our upcoming events.

Here´s our media report: http://www.opendiscgolf.com/2015/07/24/eo2015-makes-waves-in-media/

While is understandable that hard-core DGers would like to see 4-hour long streams from every day, that is not our strategy. Our strategy is to create high quality content with a sustainable model. We decided not to spend 30k to make a 5-day quality stream for small audience (hard-core), since that model is not sustainable. In real life (in broadcasting business) there is no way to make sustainable live stream from Disc Golf at the moment. PPV model is not possible. There are 10 people here who would say "I would pay for that". We need commercial partners outside from the sport to be able to make quality content. And that case, we need to make our production with their interests in our mind. That means shorter live broadcasts and wider exposure. All credit to DGP, Smashboxx and Lgcm8 but that material is not going to sell at YLE or ESPN headquarters. European Open production was made together with the best sports production company in Finland (Mediatec). We used their $5million equipment including 3200 fps antelope cameras. Here´s a sneak peek whats coming: https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes
(in my personal opinion, Disc Golf has never looked this good)

SpinTV goal is to make Disc Golf productions at highest level and commercial friendly. I´m ready to make that with a cost of loosing some hard-core DGers. There is bigger catch to take. I have a vision and strategy that needs to be executed. I also want to point out that we are currently making broadcasts from 2-3 events annually. That leaves 2000+ PDGA events to enjoy with other methods. Youtubers are important and vital part of the sport. With their hard work, many of us are able to watch disc golf. Thank you for all of you.

But, lets face it: We have whined all our 40-year-history that we should already be in the mainstream or why ESPN is not covering us and so on. Well, because we are not able to make attractive product to the mainstream.. Shaky 4-hour-long live stream with breaking connection will never take us into the mainstream. I have chosen a different route. This route is full of danger and possible losses. We also complain that our top pros should be earning six figures. Well, without larger media exposure it will not happen. This is a really simple formula and people should understand it.

I started this great sport in 1994. Since then, I have dreamed to be a professional Disc Golfer. I was not able to do it for myself (lack of skill, money and time). But the desire in side me was too big. In 2009 I decided to make this sport as professional as possible and offer a possibility to others to be professional Disc Golfers. I quit my well-running advertising agency. After that I have been all-in Disc Golf. 6 years later, Disc Golf is a live TV-sport in Finland. Our national broadcaster´s big boss called me on Tuesday and wanted to thank me for the event and the broadcast. He wants to develop the product and have more live Disc Golf in their national network. This is a dream coming true on personal level.

We keep on pushing. Next stop is the USDGC where Spin18 is taking care of the media exposure. I will not speculate here what is going to happen there and we are still under negotiations. I have hired my good friend Jamie Thomas full-time for SpinTV starting on August 1st. He is a talent that I wanted to have on my team. We have also agreed that we are not going to comment on this forum anymore. I apologize for us reacting critique aggressively over the European Open week. That week pushed ourself to the limit. We understand that there are haters and people who does not like what we do. To me, its a sign that we are moving forward. Thank you to all people here pushing us forward. I promise to keep going forward and one day…


Over and out,
Jussi Meresmaa

 

[F. Howl]

Are there enough camera crews to make a live feed watchable? If there's only 1 crew (following the main/lead card, I assume) there would need to be a lot of filler between throws. What fills that time? Probably not live play, and I won't be watching a several-hours live feed if most of what I'd be watching is filler. Two crews might be enough, 1 each for the lead and chase cards. Even with that arrangement I imagine there'd be a lot of dead time.

The ADGT did this the best. Just cut to the Hooters girls.
#WWTADGTD?

 

[lyleoross]

DGPT events had a very good way of filling dead time (aside from commercials). They filmed the FPO lead card earlier in the day and ran that footage, typically after tee shots while the players walked the fairway to where their throws landed.

Obviously that wouldn't be an option at USDGC (no FPO division) but perhaps a couple stationary cameras on particularly holes. Hole 17 would be a great one at Winthrop...just cut away to whatever group is throwing that hole when needed.

I'm always amused by the concerns about dead time and no action with live coverage. No one seems to complain about the lack of action on an NFL broadcast (just to pick a popular televised sport). For a 3-3.5 hour broadcast, there's really only about 15-20 minutes of total action. The rest is players returning to the huddle, going on and off the field, refs discussing/announcing penalties, and of course, delays for replay review. And let's not forget the countless commercial breaks.

That's not to say live coverage can't be improved, of course it can. But even the basic coverage we get now has elements that some might call bugs, but others see as a feature. Personally, I like the slow build drama of seeing the round play out in real time rather than on fast-forward, even if there are some dead spots along the way.

A couple of things if I might add to your post. Steve has added a number of items, let's call them entertainment ads, to his stuff. There are also some on course interviews that are very informative.

I watched the US T&T game last night. No ads... CAN YOU SAY BORING.

Go look at the numbers on DGWT events start to finish. They are losing a big chunk for their final round. I suspect it's, "I already know how this ends so I'm not watching.". Before I gets et, please reread that word, suspect.

 

[lyleoross]

The ADGT did this the best. Just cut to the Hooters girls.
#WWTADGTD?

My eyes, my eyes! I'll never get those brain cells back.

 

[ChrisWoj]

I think most people that want to watch tournaments live just want to goof off at work. In another vein, DG is our way of life and a lot of players want to know what's going on in the present.

If I tape a Penn State game and find out who won before I get home, I probably won't spend the time to watch the game. I'm sure the same is true for DG tourneys for a lot of DG players. People want fresh info in this tech world.

Is the bulk of the watching population in the 'office' on Sunday afternoon or Saturday afternoon? Those are the only days I'm watching live coverage...

 

[JTacoma03]

Does anyone remember the Insider Show from the 2015 European open? :thmbdown: At least we actually get to watch tape-delayed USDGC action this year. People have been fighting with Jussi Meresmaa and Jaime Thomas for a while about their vision for disc golf coverage. It got so heated that back in 2015 they "agreed that [they] are not going to comment on this forum anymore."

Jamie continues to fight with us


But here are Jussi's final words on the subject:

I worked for Discmania (not SpinTV) as an employee for 4 months, shortly after that post was made. I'm not sure why he wrote SpinTV in that post though - does seem odd looking back.

After 4 months I asked that we to go back to the previous arrangement (contracted freelance for SpinTV). Mainly because I was doing too many different tasks for his various brands and not focusing as specifically on media as I had hoped...and that's how it goes when you become an employee, your time and IP are no longer yours.

I do very much appreciate Jussi for that gesture though, as he was trying to give me consistent income...and I still have great relationships with the whole Discmania team which I cherish.

Since we're doing the ever-so-classy move of ripping scabs off of old wounds let's just address it. Should I have walked away and re-read the post before sending? Definitely. I should have chosen my words better. Do I regret sticking up for the team that worked 18 hour days for insanely low pay while taking a shellacking online from people who were angry about the lack of instant gratification? No. Should I have put so much emotional stock into some online posts? No. I'm a passionate person, and I put all of myself into projects, sometimes to a fault. What can I say, I'm human and far from perfect.

I'm about the future, and the positive. I'm learning to accept that not everybody agrees with every decision. We've built the flagship media source for the sport over the last 5 years, and I can't wait to look back and reminisce about these days in another 5 years. I'm all-in on disc golf and SpinTV, and I love that I'm able to contribute my talents to a sport and community that I genuinely love.

 

[frasnow]

I worked for Discmania (not SpinTV) as an employee for 4 months, shortly after that post was made. I'm not sure why he wrote SpinTV in that post though - does seem odd looking back.

After 4 months I asked that we to go back to the previous arrangement (contracted freelance for SpinTV). Mainly because I was doing too many different tasks for his various brands and not focusing as specifically on media as I had hoped...and that's how it goes when you become an employee, your time and IP are no longer yours.

I do very much appreciate Jussi for that gesture though, as he was trying to give me consistent income...and I still have great relationships with the whole Discmania team which I cherish.

Since we're doing the ever-so-classy move of ripping scabs off of old wounds let's just address it. Should I have walked away and re-read the post before sending? Definitely. I should have chosen my words better. Do I regret sticking up for the team that worked 18 hour days for insanely low pay while taking a shellacking online from people who were angry about the lack of instant gratification? No. Should I have put so much emotional stock into some online posts? No. I'm a passionate person, and I put all of myself into projects, sometimes to a fault. What can I say, I'm human and far from perfect.

I'm about the future, and the positive. I'm learning to accept that not everybody agrees with every decision. We've built the flagship media source for the sport over the last 5 years, and I can't wait to look back and reminisce about these days in another 5 years. I'm all-in on disc golf and SpinTV, and I love that I'm able to contribute my talents to a sport and community that I genuinely love.

Thanks for the clarification on your work situation and relationship to Jussi. I'm sorry this was a sore point for you, but I wanted to point out that progress has been made in improving DGWT coverage and to share Jussi's actual words instead of what we all think he said or think he believes. I appreciate your passion and that you are "about the future, and the positive." If you can stop attacking people instead of the argument ("ever-so-classy move", "keyboard warriors", etc.), I think we can have a richer discussion.

 

[F. Howl]

Going ad hominem is legit if one side believes the other side's character is directly related to the issue of the debate.
I read the post in question...nothing harsh in my opinion.

 

[frasnow]

Going ad hominem is legit if one side believes the other side's character is directly related to the issue of the debate.
I read the post in question...nothing harsh in my opinion.

My criticism was about how often Jamie goes ad hominem. His saying I don't have class for bringing up the past wasn't that harsh. I think he has good things to say, and just needs to work on how he says them.

 

[kerplunk]

I think he has good things to say, and just needs to work on how he says them.

Maybe he and MTL could form a support group.