Does Kensington Toboggan Belong top 10?

[Danger]

If being temporary is your criteria, then all of your beloved mid west and east coast courses should be removed from the top 10 as well. You see, as a Southern Californian, I enjoy courses that are open all year. Therefore, I expect every course to be open all year. If they close down due to snow, well that to me would indicate that they are NOT open all year, therefore making them temporary.

All of the ski resort courses that are open for only the summer, should those be considered 'temporary' as well?

A course is a course, if its the best, then its the best regardless of when or how often its open. This discussion is retarded.

 

[Fender088]

Damn. So much controversy. I liked the idea about having at least a top 25 to give more courses exposure. I think when you start talking about temporary courses and whatnot you enter a gray area with no clear answer. I think if the course opens every year for a consistent amount of time then you have to consider its layout in comparison to all others, regardless of the period of time that it's open.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If being temporary is your criteria, then all of your beloved mid west and east coast courses should be removed from the top 10 as well. You see, as a Southern Californian, I enjoy courses that are open all year. Therefore, I expect every course to be open all year.

You must not have played in winter in the Midwest and East. Most courses do not come out and we actually play them all year long including glow rounds.

 

[craftsman]

Compn, let me know about playing it. I still have the pics on a camera and I've played it a few times.

 

[craftsman]

Lmfao at cass-holes/cassuals! I only play it in the mourning

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

I'm sorry but I just couldn't give Toboggan a 5. It doesn't matter how many good things I can say about this course, because theres just too many main cons. Its only open about 1 month, with no tee signs, no "next tee" signs, or permanent tee pads. Those 4 things alone can't make it better than a 4 star (disc) course in my opinion.

Call me picky if you want, but just the fact that it's only open 1/12 of the year should be enough to not call it the best of the best. What's even worse yet is that they could easily keep it up all year if they wanted too. The Kensington Black Locust course is open year round and gets flooded by groups everyday, It would be so nice to always have the Toboggan course open to even out the flow of the courses. I understand that they want to keep the land fresh, but those damn woods are so thick come tourney time, it would almost be nice to have casuals breaking it in all year long.

All that aside, it's not like the course design is the greatest out there either. There are very few holes that have any kind of obstacles in the fairway, instead mostly every hole consists of open, long, slightly hilly fairways, with extremely thick woods and rough on the sides of the fairways ((cough..Ball Golf..cough)). I'm usually not style bias either, but holding the AM Nats here gives "technical" players absolutely no chance at competing. I guess i'm really not surprised this is the course that holds the event though, the PDGA as a whole is style bias to begin with. Every important PDGA event is held at big, open, bomber courses, just like this one.

I don't mean to sound like a hater either. I still enjoy playing Toboggan when it's open, and I rated it the same as some high quality courses like Beauty, Beast, and Hudson Mills. Also, Toboggan is by far closer to my house than any other course that's ever been on the top 10 list too, but it just doesn't belong in the Top 10 courses in the world. The day they open this course year round, and add a couple standard amenities like permanent tee pads, tee signs, or "next tee" signs. Then I will give this course a higher rating. But until then, i'll take courses like Lincoln Ridge and Hickory Hills over Toboggan any day!

 

[Toomes]

I'm sorry but I just couldn't give Toboggan a 5. It doesn't matter how many good things I can say about this course, because theres just too many main cons. Its only open about 1 month, with no tee signs, no "next tee" signs, or permanent tee pads. Those 4 things alone can't make it better than a 4 star (disc) course in my opinion.

You're logic here makes no sense to me if I'm reading the quote above correctly. Going by your logic, no temp course can be a great course.

A course should only be judged when its completely set up. If you play the Toboggon when it's setup for AM Nats it has fly pads, tee signs, etc.

I can understand your other gripes about the course not fitting your style, not being technical, etc, but you can't deduct rating just because a course is temp.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Every important PDGA event is held at big, open, bomber courses, just like this one.

Not true. Also, the PDGA doesn't pick the courses, the local hosts do. Toboggan is Kenner's baby and Discraft is the sponsor. I agree with your assessment on Toboggan but it's still better than a mostly average set of courses available for the event within reasonable distance of Discraft HQ other than Cass Benton before it got run down.

Many pros WISH the big PDGA events would have more bomber courses. The ones that do have a lot of air also have treacherous OB such as Winthrop, Fountain and Vista that tends to offset any bomber advantage. Consider that courses like Coldbrook were played by the pros at Worlds in K-Zoo, for example. Six of the eight courses played by Open thru the semis at KC Worlds were wooded and technical.

 

[DangeRuss]

I haven't even played it and I know it doesn't deserve to be that high. I agree with 164Valk, Hickory Hills deserves to be in the top ten if toboggan is.

Although...it still does look fun. Check out this video from all the tee pads. Gives a little sneak peak into what it's like.

http://://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu-aMl6ZHRY

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

You're logic here makes no sense to me if I'm reading the quote above correctly. Going by your logic, no temp course can be a great course.

I'm saying it can't be the "best of the best", I guess it really just comes down to opinion though. I look at it like this, The course is only 20 minutes from my house but I can only play it 10% of the entire year. I don't know about you, but to me thats definitely a relevant factor in the overall rating.

Not true. Also, the PDGA doesn't pick the courses, the local hosts do. Toboggan is Kenner's baby and Discraft is the sponsor. I agree with your assessment on Toboggan but it's still better than a mostly average set of courses available for the event within reasonable distance of Discraft HQ other than Cass Benton before it got run down.

Many pros WISH the big PDGA events would have more bomber courses. The ones that do have a lot of air also have treacherous OB such as Winthrop, Fountain and Vista that tends to offset any bomber advantage. Consider that courses like Coldbrook were played by the pros at Worlds in K-Zoo, for example. Six of the eight courses played by Open thru the semis at KC Worlds were wooded and technical.

I really should have said "most" PDGA events are at mostly open and big courses. But please don't try and tell me that pros WISH events were held at more open courses. The PDGA holds its tourneys at courses that are mostly open bombers at least 80% of the time. They would never hold a finals at a course like "The Jungle" for instance. Even though "The Jungle" has full size concrete tee pads and very nice signs on every hole, it would still be "too wooded" for PDGA final standards.

On a positive note though , heres a new video of Kensington Toboggan that just dropped.-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUHl2KGfT48

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA holds its tourneys at courses that are mostly open bombers at least 80% of the time. They would never hold a finals at a course like "The Jungle" for instance.

It's flat out not correct. Remember I track the ratings data and know how wooded the courses are from the SSA and length data. The openness or wooded factor has more to do with where the courses are located in the country with much more woods in the midwest and eastern courses than central and western US. But that's not a PDGA choice. Yes, the Final 9 courses are mostly in the open simply for spectators. But as pointed out, players have to make their way thru more wooded than open courses to get to that Worlds Final 9 with Waterworks, Oshtemo, Blueberry and Riverview being the mostly wooded semifinal courses played by Open in the past four Worlds.

 

[Disc Golf Live]

With all the discussion of the Toboggan, I worked up a tour of the outward nine from a past story on my show. The piece features Dave Feldberg, Matt Orum, Cale Leviska, and Matthew Blakely in final round action from the '07 Discraft Great Lakes Open. Lots of great shots, one nasty one where Dave breaks his hand. Here's a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUHl2KGfT48

 

[compn]

ouch @ dave breaking a bone on a follow thru. i think after the 3rd or 4th time i hit my hand on a tree i vowed never to do it again. thanks for the vid.

 

[DirtyMittenDG]

It's flat out not correct. Remember I track the ratings data and know how wooded the courses are from the SSA and length data. The openness or wooded factor has more to do with where the courses are located in the country with much more woods in the midwest and eastern courses than central and western US. But that's not a PDGA choice. Yes, the Final 9 courses are mostly in the open simply for spectators. But as pointed out, players have to make their way thru more wooded than open courses to get to that Worlds Final 9 with Waterworks, Oshtemo, Blueberry and Riverview being the mostly wooded semifinal courses played by Open in the past four Worlds.

Thank you for helping make my point. First of all, the courses you just named as the "most wooded" in the past 4 years, are just barley able to be called technical on most tech players standards. And you just admitted that most of the final courses are wide open for the sake of spectators. Pretty much it just comes down to this; You couldn't name one finals year in the past decade (or maybe ever), that had more technical courses than bomber courses.

 

[srm_520]

I think I just like the fact that they is so much controversy. It's funny - sounds like this course is loads of fun, but I think these people need to get out to play some Colorado mountain courses so they can really do an accurate comparison to big elevation courses that are permanent even if they are covered in snow.

I wonder if this course is "best of best" during that one month? No permanent boxes, signage, etc... - I think that's part of it right? Isn't only a month of play a con? There much be half a disc to a whole disc bump off in there somewhere.

Bottom line - if this prompts the top ten to become a better resource to to see maybe 11-100 as was said earlier. I'm all for it. Raising the # of reviews won't solve that problem - just delay it. Keep the standards but expand - we all know by now that Flip City and Idlewild are God's gift to DG courses, so let's see what else is getting rating more than once a year. And even then - we only get a top 50. I'm sure everyone would salivate over having a constantly updated top 100 course. With 3000 courses and plenty of reviews now - I'm sure this site is finally ready for that jump.

 

[topcide]

Toboggen, IMO, is THE most overated course in michigan. With that being said, it is also one of the most difficult courses I have ever played but that is not the reason I think it's overblown.

Toboggen is essentially the same shot, with slight variation, over and over. Big, downhill rips that totally punish you with any mistake. The rough is the thickest anywhere. If you land a disc off the fairway at all you stand around a 50% chance of not finding it on a lot of the holes. One time I watched my disc land maybe 10 feet max off the fairway, spotted the exact location it landed, and was unable find my disc,and I found 2 others while looking. the vegetation is so thick, you literally would stand the best chance of finding a disc using a machete, no joke.
There is allmost no technical shots on the entire course, only a few could be considered such and they are a stretch. You NEED a spotter for many of the holes as they are blind, and honrstly on the open ones you really need 2 sets of eyes on your disc.
As was stated before, no pads, ETC but it is a temp course.

With that being said, when toboggen is in, I usually play it once or twice and it's a lot of fun. It's a novelty. I am a firm beliver that if toboggen was permanent it would not be as highly thought off, the fact that is is only in for less than a month give's it a somwhat mythical status.

With cass benton. As far as the pyhysical course is concerned, I think that cass is one of the best courses around anywhere. I learned to play at cass, and I have also noticed that people who come up playing there DO have a good forehand. this is as cass i one of the few courses that literally has every single type of hole, and literally challagnes every shot you have. The course is starting to get pretty opened up from the sheer volume of people that come thorugh there, and vary little maitnance done by the city.

The course is in bad shape, taking care of that course is a lost cause. There is so much trash it's unbelivable. I'm no hater on what people do , but the drinking, blatent smoking, and ass-clownage is out of controll. the quality of the people is disgusting, people will still discs, and you will get thrown into. it's honestly really sad to say, but I try not to play there, and only play in the early mornings when I do.

 

[optidiscic]

It's a temporary course (3-4 weeks a year?) with no tees and no signs. It only has baskets for less than a month a year. Does it belong top ten?

 

[biscoe]

it wouldn't belong in the top 10 even if it were permanent imo. it's a very good course but overly biased to power players.

 

[Three Putt]

Toboggan gets a halo effect. DGLO and Am Nats are two very well-run events, and basically people who have played in those events are the people who have played Toboggan. So you go, you have a great time and you remember the course as great.

It also is only going to get a certain type of player. Duffers don't wander out to Toboggan. Serious players go out of their way to see it when it is open, and the course sets up well for them. Basically it is a power player course that draws in power players for a couple of weeks a year, and they all have a ball. They don't have to worry about making it accessible to a wider audience with red tees, becasue if you want to throw off the red tees you shouldn't be there.

It all probably adds up to grade inflation. If it were open year-round somebody would blast it with a Redneck Machismo review and the grade would even out a bit, which would probably drop it out of the ten.

As it is, it's not keeping me awake at night that a premiere tournament course is in the top ten.

 

[Jay Dub]

To me the fact it's a temporary course would be a reason to think it shouldn't be a top rated course. Now I would agree that the best course is still the best no matter how often it's open, but on a site like this I want to look at courses I can play at anytime.

Another option could be put it where it belongs (if it's ranked #5, have it there) but add an " * " or a note explaining the situation. I think this would solve any issues about the course and it's rating.