Making your shoulder lever longer

[shawnstarr]

I believe that getting the trailing shoulder tucked in towards the center of your gravity serves the purpose to elongate your shoulder lever. What I mean by this is typically peoples center of rotation is their spine. So the shoulder lever goes from their leading shoulder to the middle of their chest. But when you slam your rear shoulder in towards the center it becomes the center of rotation therefore elongating that lever to encompass the entire length of your shoulders therefore giving you twice as much length and leverage and therefore more power. I've never heard of anybody else talking about this but I think this is what's happening. What are your thoughts on this everyone?

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[drk_evns]

This is probably something I picked up from the other guys here, but I think it's more about giving your frontside something to leverage against. Having your off arm "inside" your swing allows your front side to open up and push off a sort of wall. If your arm is just dangling behind you, you've got no backside to push off of.

That's always how I've pictured/felt it.

 

[UhhNegative]

The center of rotation isn't the spine in this case. First of all, the center of rotation isn't really static, it's dynamic, but in the disc golf throw, it is centered over the front leg. And it's not really the rotation that is creating the force. If you just stand in a normal upright stance and spin around your spine you aren't going to be flinging discs very far. The lever is elongated through lateral movement, not a fundamental change in the center of rotation.

 

[sidewinder22]

Correct, I like to think of the trail or off arm swimming the rest of the swing forward ahead of it.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3364324&postcount=556

Exactly, shoulders and arm are basically just one big extended lever geared from the hips. This is the same in BH and FH.

When your shoulder starts going forward your elbow should be going along as well with a little lag to put a plyometric load/spring back into the muscles as you try to maintain the upper arm angle and everything will work more together in sync. Think of your shoulders and arm as one big lever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQYGzTlVetQ#t=7m

Left shoulder centered little arc during swing. Which swings and speeds up right shoulder forward into long wide arc during swing.
Then right shoulder makes centered little arc from hit and left shoulder gets pulled thru into wide arc after release.

 

[shawnstarr]

The center of rotation isn't the spine in this case. First of all, the center of rotation isn't really static, it's dynamic, but in the disc golf throw, it is centered over the front leg. And it's not really the rotation that is creating the force. If you just stand in a normal upright stance and spin around your spine you aren't going to be flinging discs very far. The lever is elongated through lateral movement, not a fundamental change in the center of rotation.

I seems you completely misunderstood my post.

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[UhhNegative]

I seems you completely misunderstood my post.

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Probably so, but I'm willing to learn. How does changing the off arm change the swing center?

 

[shawnstarr]

Probably so, but I'm willing to learn. How does changing the off arm change the swing center?

Think about it purely in terms of physics and leverage. Your levers ejecting the disc are your shoulders, then upper arm, then lower arm, then wrist. The faster you can move these levers the farther you throw. The longer a lever the faster it's terminal end can travel. Imaging swinging a 2ft baseball bat vs 4ft bat
Like you said most amateur throwers have their center of rotation during the hit point at their spine or even farther forward near their throwing arm. This makes the shoulder lever very short. But how do you make that shoulder lever longer? You back up the center of rotation to the rear shoulder. This is why all the big throwers make a swimming or punching motion with their off hand. They are starting the rotation from the rear shoulder not the front.
Imaging holding a broom stick across the top of your shoulders. If you wanted to get the right side of the stick to move as fast as possible. Would you center the rotation over your right or left shoulder?

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[sidewinder22]

I seems you completely misunderstood my post.

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Probably so, but I'm willing to learn. How does changing the off arm change the swing center?

I think UN has center of rotation/axis confused with the swing center/levers from the axis.

You can see how the hammer thrower below centers his rotation on the lead foot as it pivots, the trail foot pivots and has to step around the lead foot pivoting.

You can also see how the trail side is tucking into the center to help push/leverage the lead throwing side out further.

 

[UhhNegative]

Yeah I knew there was some sort of confusion of terms there on my part.

I've always understood the rear side tucking in to the center as something that was mainly to keep all your mass as centered as possible to increase how fast you rotate (like ice skater arms out vs in). But now going back and reading through the SW22 Swim Move thread I'm seeing that its basically also starting the motion forward along with the rear leg. But that is just to get everything forward onto the front leg cleanly, right?

It's only a longer shoulder lever because you are delaying the arm/shoulder movement forward until after the rear leg and rear arm have leveraged forward into the plant. Am I thinking right here? I'm thinking like how GG stays turned back so dang long to get that huge distance.



Maybe the overhead KJ images would help.

 

[sidewinder22]

Note how the navel or center of gravity and shoulders or swing center line up differently on the ankle or center of rotation/yellow line.

 

[RoDeO]

The pivot or center of rotation is around the spine. We can only elongate the lever by getting more full extension on the disc out in front at release. The pivot never changes though, it is always centered around the spine.

 

[RowingBoats]

The pivot or center of rotation is around the spine. We can only elongate the lever by getting more full extension on the disc out in front at release. The pivot never changes though, it is always centered around the spine.

I guess this explains your inability to understand the brace leg.

Nice thread necro with a... hot take though.

 

[RoDeO]

I guess this explains your inability to understand the brace leg.

Nice thread necro with a... hot take though.

The weight of the body does pivot around the brace but the axis of rotation to expel the disc is around the spine, and must be to be most efficient.

Watch Gilbert's head which basically serves as the center of rotation. His shoulders are moving in opposite directions as they pivot around his spine.

 

[RandyC]

The weight of the body does pivot around the brace but the axis of rotation to expel the disc is around the spine, and must be to be most efficient.

Watch Gilbert's head which basically serves as the center of rotation. His shoulders are moving in opposite directions as they pivot around his spine.

is your arm attached to your spine ?

 

[RoDeO]

is your arm attached to your spine ?

What are you talking about?

 

[bsammons]

Why do you claim knowledge on things that you clearly have no understanding of?
The pivot point of leverage is not around the spine. It's not. You may think it is, but it's not.

If you don't have a full understanding of how the brace works, then why are you trying to convince people of something about the center of rotation?
The center of rotation is around the brace. Think of it as the center of a see-saw. It's the fulcrum of the throw - that's why it rotates near the end of the throw.
You have no idea what the brace does.

You have no idea what the hips do.

You have no idea how the entire body is utilized to propel the disc in the most biomechanically efficient manner.

So stop trying to convince everyone you know how to and can teach someone to throw with proper form.

Thanks,
-all of us

 

[RoDeO]

Why do you claim knowledge on things that you clearly have no understanding of?
The pivot point of leverage is not around the spine. It's not. You may think it is, but it's not.

If you don't have a full understanding of how the brace works, then why are you trying to convince people of something about the center of rotation?
The center of rotation is around the brace. Think of it as the center of a see-saw. It's the fulcrum of the throw - that's why it rotates near the end of the throw.
You have no idea what the brace does.

You have no idea what the hips do.

You have no idea how the entire body is utilized to propel the disc in the most biomechanically efficient manner.

So stop trying to convince everyone you know how to and can teach someone to throw with proper form.

Thanks,
-all of us

The axis of rotation is the center of the body. The arm which serves as the lever pivots around the center of the body or spine area so to speak. And it must because you have yo have a counter weight moving the opposite direction to have leverage. That weight had to be generally balanced. Look at where the center of rotation is in the overhead video here. Where is the pivoting taking place? Around the spine are downwards. Yes that can extend down to the pivot foot but the main leverage point is around the spine area.

 

[RowingBoats]

The axis of rotation is the center of the body. The arm which serves as the lever pivots around the center of the body or spine area so to speak. And it must because you have yo have a counter weight moving the opposite direction to have leverage. That weight had to be generally balanced. Look at where the center of rotation is in the overhead video here. Where is the pivoting taking place? Around the spine are downwards. Yes that can extend down to the pivot foot but the main leverage point is around the spine area.

Using this particular gif to posit that the axis of rotation is the spine. Just...what?

 

[RoDeO]

Using this particular gif to posit that the axis of rotation is the spine. Just...what?

It Clearly shows where things are pivoting around. It's not the shoulder, it's the center of the spine area downwards.

 

[RowingBoats]

It Clearly shows where things are pivoting around. It's not the shoulder, it's the center of the spine area downwards.

You have a habit of using words in a way that I literally cannot parse, so clarify this. In your sentence above, what do you mean by 'things'?