[Gateway] New Gateway driver or 80's thrash metal band?-Slayer

[Three Putt]

Part of the perception problem is the fact that Nikko primarily is using other companies discs. More than once I've heard somebody say "Nobody uses Gateway drivers. Even their pros don't use Gateway drivers." If their sponsored players don't use them, why would anyone else? The mixed bag thing was a good ploy to help Nikko be more competitive, but it was a short-term fix for not having a very good selection of discs for their sponsored players to throw. At some point they will have to fix that to solve the perception problem that mixed bag creates.

 

[apdrvya]

^^this. anything but their putters are garbage..

 

[New013]

i know nothing about what nikko throws and i've never thrown a gateway driver.. only the warrior and their putters.

so as a person who is relatively new to the game and just hearing that he uses a mix bag and no gateway drivers makes me never want to try one. that's not good for them.

 

[IronJack]

McCormack lets all Gateway sponsored players use a mixed bag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYfytPTs5qU

I can understand a company being leery to let their sponsored players use other companies' discs, but on the other hand, if someone wants to use a few discs out of a whole bag, I don't see a major issue.

 

[New013]

i'm all for people using mixed bags, for players it's definitely an advantage. i completely agree with what he's saying in that any exposure is good exposure on the pro level.

it's just that when you get to the point where nobody is throwing gateway drivers in an increasingly driver driven market then.... no bueno.

 

[SirRaph]

There are quite a few of their pros that throw all Gateway. John E McCray is all Gateway, I believe. Double-G was all Gateway before he went to team Innova as well.

I have a buddy who throws all Gateway. I've been able to throw some of their best runs. Hard, baby blue Illusions are a very solid distance driver. They remind me of the AJ star "Vulcan-stroyers" -- glideless speed machines.
Blazes, if you can get a good run, are highly crushable when they beat up. They remind me of a star Whippet when they're new. When they get beat, they remind me of a slower, glidier ESP Predator.

When I started trying their discs though, it was a HUGE red flag to me to see how staunchly their sponsored players guard/horde the best runs of the molds they like. If their sponsored players have trouble supplying themselves with good runs, what hope do us regular folk have?

 

[Norcal Scot]

Everyone seems to be arguing or adding their $.02 ... so here's mine: Slayer is thrash, not speed

Slayer is neither of those...Slayer is God.

 

[Three Putt]

McCormack lets all Gateway sponsored players use a mixed bag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYfytPTs5qU

I can understand a company being leery to let their sponsored players use other companies' discs, but on the other hand, if someone wants to use a few discs out of a whole bag, I don't see a major issue.

You have to understand that the video is spin. Brand-exclusive pro's exist in every sport, and it's not ruining disc golf. Gateway had been offering brand-exclusive sponsorships for years. What was going on at the time was that Gateway had already lost Double G and was in danger of losing Nikko. The "mixed bag" idea was the compromise Gateway came up with to keep Nikko in the company. However, announcing that your disc line-up sucks and you are letting your sponsored players throw other companies discs in a desperate attempt to keep them from leaving doesn't make a very good press release. So you get the spin in that video. I've always been surprised that people fell for that line of bull, but people do.

There are quite a few of their pros that throw all Gateway. John E McCray is all Gateway, I believe. Double-G was all Gateway before he went to team Innova as well.

I have a buddy who throws all Gateway. I've been able to throw some of their best runs. Hard, baby blue Illusions are a very solid distance driver. They remind me of the AJ star "Vulcan-stroyers" -- glideless speed machines.
Blazes, if you can get a good run, are highly crushable when they beat up. They remind me of a star Whippet when they're new. When they get beat, they remind me of a slower, glidier ESP Predator.

When I started trying their discs though, it was a HUGE red flag to me to see how staunchly their sponsored players guard/horde the best runs of the molds they like. If their sponsored players have trouble supplying themselves with good runs, what hope do us regular folk have?

At the time that Double G was Gateway, they didn't offer a mixed bag sponsorship.

There were good players under the Gateway banner when they had to use all Gateway. John E McCray, Justin Bunnell, Shawn Sinclair, George Smith, Matt Hall...all of those guys did well throwing all Gateway at some point. Anybody who says everything Gateway makes except their putters is crap is wrong. It's a false impression, just like the blanket assertion that all of Lightning's discs were crap. Both companies make (or made as the case may be) useable discs. However, the perception amongst the semi-serious disc golf crowd is that those discs suck. The Ninja was an epic mistake in fighting that perception. IMO, Gateway has to do something to change that perception or eventually they will got the way of Lightning.

As I recall things, when Gateway fell behind was the Summer of the Destroyer. They never came up with an answer to the Destroyer or any of the drivers that followed. If this new driver is a Destroyer-type disc and they are able to produce it consistently, I think that would be huge for Gateway.

 

[New013]

I like the warrior quite a bit; if it wasn't swimming I'd still have it in my bag.

 

[jtbingster]

He disagrees with the idea that faster discs are detrimental to advancing the general skill level of disc golfers. He doesn't have to throw it, touch it, or have any contact with it.


At the OP: I'm sure it would help everyone, people on this site and the Gateway included, if you suggested things they do better instead of just talked about what they've done wrong. There is a place for telling someone they've done something wrong, but that place isn't teh interwebs.

And for the record, I am not saying what you did was wrong. I'm simply saying there is something more helpful to do.

You're right. I tried to explain my reason to xJFK, but I dunno if I did it very well.

somebody gets it. if disc companies were in the business of making everyone who ever bought a disc happy they would be out of business. gateway has to answer to their investors... not people on this forum.

if high speed drivers make more money because the increasing amount of newer players to the game run out and buy high speed discs then that's what they HAVE TO SELL.

Here's my point. High speed drivers sell well partly (mostly) because the companies tell noobs that the discs will make them throw farther. They could easily make as much money off of selling putters, mids, and fairways if they told the noobs that THOSE would help them throw farther.

I'm saddened by the fact that companies would rather make money off of new players than help further the game.

 

[firstrun]

I played in the Vol Classic in Knoxville, TN and all the winners of the 3rd cards got one of these drivers. They still had the proto stamp on them, but they are now legal to throw. It is Gateway's "destroyer." Fast, stable, and long. Not as stable as the SDS's though. Put arm on it and it will flip up, drift right, with a predictable left finish as most new destroyers do. Granted the proto runs will differ from the runs that they will sell, but I think it's a solid disc. Definitely worth giving it a good toss!

 

[Three Putt]

Here's my point. High speed drivers sell well partly (mostly) because the companies tell noobs that the discs will make them throw farther. They could easily make as much money off of selling putters, mids, and fairways if they told the noobs that THOSE would help them throw farther.

I'm saddened by the fact that companies would rather make money off of new players than help further the game.

It has a lot more to do with us than the companies. Back in the day all the n00bs threw Vipers. There wasn't much in the way of Internet back then, the the stuff Innova put out clearly said "not recommended for beginners." What would happen is a new guy would show up and some guy on the course would hand him a Viper and say "This is the longest disc out there. Buy one of these." So the n00b would buy a Viper and would proceed to throw drives that went 80' forward and 100' left.

The same thing happens today. We have a guy who sells discs from his van, and he is always handing the new guys a Vulcan or Katana and telling them to start with one of those. He said the Wahoo sucked because it was too slow. He's a nice enough guy and he promotes the game, he just thinks he knows more than he does and promotes the "faster is better" thing. That comes more from word of mouth on the course than it does from the manufacturers.

 

[Three Putt]

I played in the Vol Classic in Knoxville, TN and all the winners of the 3rd cards got one of these drivers. They still had the proto stamp on them, but they are now legal to throw. It is Gateway's "destroyer." Fast, stable, and long. Not as stable as the SDS's though. Put arm on it and it will flip up, drift right, with a predictable left finish as most new destroyers do. Granted the proto runs will differ from the runs that they will sell, but I think it's a solid disc. Definitely worth giving it a good toss!

If this new driver can be the GDS Destroyer, that would be a good thing. Not necessarily for us since we are already free to buy a Destroyer, but good for GDS.

 

[New013]

Here's my point. High speed drivers sell well partly (mostly) because the companies tell noobs that the discs will make them throw farther. They could easily make as much money off of selling putters, mids, and fairways if they told the noobs that THOSE would help them throw farther.

I'm saddened by the fact that companies would rather make money off of new players than help further the game.

We live in bigger is better society. We all drive cars with 160mph on the speedometer but can only take them up to 70mph legally on interstates. The idea that companies control what consumers buy is really a myth. Companies sell whatever market research and receipts tell them to sell.

For years the green crowd was trying to get environmentally friendly products in to Wal-Mart with no avail; and then the green movement became the new fad in the wake of Global Warming. Now green is popular and when you go in Wal-Mart you see green products all over the place.

Companies have to make money to stay in business, it's not there fault newer players aren't researching the products they're buying. When I started really getting in to disc golf I knew I had to go out and find more information to improve my game; that's how I found this place. If these newer players took the time to do some research they wouldn't buy speed 13 discs right off the bat... or maybe they would; that's the great thing about the free market.

 

[Lamp]

Yeah, you can't blame the companies for the kinds of products that n00bs are buying, you can only blame the n00b for not researching anything and buying a disc that he/she cannot control.

The same thing happens today. We have a guy who sells discs from his van, and he is always handing the new guys a Vulcan or Katana and telling them to start with one of those. He said the Wahoo sucked because it was too slow. He's a nice enough guy and he promotes the game, he just thinks he knows more than he does and promotes the "faster is better" thing.

Does this guy genuinely believe what he is telling teh n00bz is the truth, or is he just spreading false claims in order to make money?

 

[Three Putt]

Does this guy genuinely believe what he is telling teh n00bz is the truth, or is he just spreading false claims in order to make money?

I would have to believe that he genuinely believes what he preaches. He will let guys take test throws, go out and play holes with guys and give them advice, etc. Like I said, nice guy. He and I differ on what we think you should tell new players, but he plays better than I do so nobody is going to listen to me. Disc golf is still a player-driven sport, and you gain your reputation on the course. If you have good advice and shoot like crap, nobody cares what you say. If your advice sucks but you beat the guy with good advice by 10 strokes, who do you think people are going to listen to? It's always been like that, and probably always will. So long as the better players recommend super-fast discs to n00bs, n00bs will throw super-fast discs.

 

[mattw]

I disagree with the thought that it is the responsibility of discgolf manufacturer to grow the sport. Take golf for instance since its the easiest parallel. Golf club manufacturers make a line up of clubs for all levels of play. This way they cover as large of a market share as possible. When it comes to building the sport and expanding a players knowledge that comes down to the PGA, Teaching pros, Magazines and TV. All of those resources guide new players in club selection and swing improvement. So as far as growing the sport of disc golf that should be the responsibility of the PDGA, Touring Pros, and other players. I think most Pros do a good job of this. Most host clinics at events and take the time to answer questions on the course. We dont have much in the way of TV help but we do have great resources through the internet. I try to direct new players to certain websites and answer what questions I can. I think its up players for the most part to grow the sport due to the limited resources at this time.

 

[Three Putt]

I disagree with the thought that it is the responsibility of discgolf manufacturer to grow the sport. Take golf for instance since its the easiest parallel. Golf club manufacturers make a line up of clubs for all levels of play. This way they cover as large of a market share as possible. When it comes to building the sport and expanding a players knowledge that comes down to the PGA, Teaching pros, Magazines and TV. All of those resources guide new players in club selection and swing improvement. So as far as growing the sport of disc golf that should be the responsibility of the PDGA, Touring Pros, and other players. I think most Pros do a good job of this. Most host clinics at events and take the time to answer questions on the course. We dont have much in the way of TV help but we do have great resources through the internet. I try to direct new players to certain websites and answer what questions I can. I think its up players for the most part to grow the sport due to the limited resources at this time.

Well, any good sports equipment company gives back something to grow their sport. It just makes sense. You make money off the popularity of a sport and put some of that money back into the sport so it grows and you make more money. So from that point of view, they do want to grow the sport.

Your point seems to be tied up in this idea that Gateway should not release a high-speed driver aimed at advanced and professional players because a n00b might throw it. Everybody should just forget that as it makes no sense unless all the disc manufacturers are going to voluntarily discontinue all discs faster than a TeeBird. Gateway isn't suddenly going to ruin the next generation of players because they released a driver that flies like a Destroyer.

 

[mattw]

I didnt mean that discgolf companies shouldnt make fast drivers. I am all for it. I think a good disc golf company has a line up that caters to all levels of play. Like I said in my first post about this driver. I hope its a hit that allows them to flesh out thier lineup more. Like you said Gateway drivers have a tendency to be on the more stable side. It would be nice if they had more than just the Sabre for a lower power requirement driver. Just because I cant throw the super fast wide rim drivers doesnt mean they shouldnt be made. You are correct my first statement about companies not being responsible to grow the sport is a little short sited. It would be nice to see them sponsor more clinics with thier touring pros at events and help fund some informative articles for magizines and websites. I am sure thier are other ways they could help that I cant think of at the moment.

 

[tbird888]

I didn't mean that disc golf companies shouldn't make fast drivers. I am all for it. I think a good disc golf company has a line up that caters to all levels of play. Like I said in my first post about this driver. I hope its a hit that allows them to flesh out their lineup more. Like you said Gateway drivers have a tendency to be on the more stable side. It would be nice if they had more than just the Sabre for a lower power requirement driver. Just because I cant throw the super fast wide rim drivers doesn't mean they shouldn't be made. You are correct my first statement about companies not being responsible to grow the sport is a little short sited. It would be nice to see them sponsor more clinics with their touring pros at events and help fund some informative articles for magazines and websites. I am sure their are other ways they could help that I cant think of at the moment.

What about the Assassin? It's far from terrible.