PDGA Updates Gender Policy

[DavidSauls]

I've skimmed it. Basically following IOC protocol is a good decision for smaller sports specifically so they basically pass the buck to a more well funded and researched team.

Ah, I meant it as a general lighthearted joke, not the actual question as to whether you had read the thread. Something about the number 2---"can't be par" "must be gender"---I think. Sorry.

 

[JTacoma03]

I think most people who want to change their gender are doing so because of social rather than physical norms. That is, when the genders are expected to behave in different ways, treat me as an X, rather than a Y. (pre-surgery)

Cultural norms of masculinity and femininity do play a role (i.e. - when someone realizes they do not fit that box), but your claim as a whole is ignorant. Maybe it's in earnest, not meant to marginalize, but it's ignorant nonetheless.

I do think that's the core of the issue. Scientific studies are showing (seemingly) that gender is not binary, but culturally our definitions are. I feel like you're trying to work backwards through this starting with culture and seeing if science matches it, rather than the other way around.

A couple decades from now the bold statement will still be true, curious to see what that scientific belief will be.

Agreed.

It blows my mind when I see people reject new science just because it doesn't match what they learned in high school. I think people just take for granted that humans are living longer, achieving greater and greater feats, improving quality of life, etc. This is all due to scientific advancement. Having a greater understanding of endocrinology and how that physically manifests in the body is going to lead to better treatments, potentially with fewer side effects, and even better quality of life for many people...

 

[texasissouth]

Ah, I meant it as a general lighthearted joke, not the actual question as to whether you had read the thread. Something about the number 2---"can't be par" "must be gender"---I think. Sorry.

Same, mine was a joke too.

Then I figured I might as well elaborate my own take if I'm gonna joke around.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Rigid perception

Hook. Line. Sinker.

Lololol

 

[DavidSauls]

Same, mine was a joke too.

Then I figured I might as well elaborate my own take if I'm gonna joke around.

We're outlaws in this thread.

 

[dorseymatt]

I don't understand why everyone is all over SD on this issue..
That being said I don't care what parts you have or don't have... just be kind.

SD was saying something much different than you are. I have no problem whatsoever with your stance!

 

[teemkey]

Cultural norms of masculinity and femininity do play a role (i.e. - when someone realizes they do not fit that box), but your claim as a whole is ignorant. Maybe it's in earnest, not meant to marginalize, but it's ignorant nonetheless.

I do think that's the core of the issue. Scientific studies are showing (seemingly) that gender is not binary, but culturally our definitions are. I feel like you're trying to work backwards through this starting with culture and seeing if science matches it, rather than the other way around.
...

What's ignorant? How so? After calling me ignorant, you then agree rather than state an opposing view ... I'm confused.

 

[JTacoma03]

What's ignorant? How so? After calling me ignorant, you then agree rather than state an opposing view ... I'm confused.

I didn't call you ignorant. I said your claim that people choose to become transgender over social conformity is lacking knowledge and awareness of the issue at hand, aka ignorant.

Maybe I am misunderstanding where you're coming from if you're saying we agree?

 

[teemkey]

I didn't call you ignorant. I said your claim that people choose to become transgender over social conformity is lacking knowledge and awareness of the issue at hand, aka ignorant.

Maybe I am misunderstanding where you're coming from if you're saying we agree?

I'm not talking about people who choose X-gender, nor about gender expression or sexual preference, nor about underlying nature or nurture; I'm talking about one event: an individual's choice of gender identity. There's a lot that can be said on the topics I'm not talking about -- just trying to keep it simple.

My Lulu example came from two people I know: 1) a woman who hasn't worn "women's clothes" for more than 20 years, and still identifies as female; 2) a man who had testicular cancer, takes hormone supplements, and wears a full beard.

 

[Cripes]

This is a naked assertion that contradicts the evidence which has been gathered and analyzed. The IOC and the PDGA's medical board have reviewed the available information and studies, and around the globe many experts have been hard at work on this, and they conclude the precise opposite of what you say. Convince them otherwise. What have you got?

I haven't seen this evidence gathered by the unnamed experts. It seems like you are just assuming that the IOC has acted on sound scientific reasons.

From what I can tell the study of the effects of hormone therapy and gender reassignment on athletic performance is still in it's infancy. The fact that the IOC recently cut it's allowable testonerone level for women in half is a good indicator that experts are still figuring this out.

I was able to find some evidence that pure running performance drops fairly significantly after taking testosterone blockers, but I don't see anything out there regarding more complex sports and skills.

I can tell you for sure that things like height, hand size, limb length, and bone structure will never change. Narrower hips, broader shoulders, stronger ligaments and tendons, and 20 plus years of muscle memory as a man all sound like an unfair advantage to me.

Our sport is self-officiated and built around trust and the benefit of the doubt. It's on the first page of the rule book in big letters. Transgender people are not inherently untrustworthy, and to single them out as such in a sport of trust is a slap in their face.

I never remotely implied transgenders were inherently untrustworthy. This was in response to post indicating that the pdga policy in practice would be to take all gender assertions at face value. To be clear I don't think there is any correlation between being trans and being a cheater. Point taken that the pdga is self officiated and doesn't currently have the resources to be otherwise. But if the sport continues to grow it would be appropriate to address this at the elite level.

Another naked assertion. As above, convince the experts otherwise.

I hope you're not implying that men and women aren't different pretreatment. As for post treatment see above for attributes that cannot be addressed.

Naked assertion. As above, convince the experts otherwise.

Still don't know who these experts are but here is one piece of real evidence. Men maintain and even increase their athletic advantage in old age when the hormonal disparity is greatly reduced.

This mischaracterizes supporters of transgender athletes of not actually believing what they are writing ("keyboard hero"). Subtly calling one's debate opponents liars is a shady tactic, so here, have a spotlight.

Wow, a gross mischaracterization of my statement. I absolutely did not question the sincerity of anyone's beliefs. I said the exact opposite, that they're compassion causes them to favor transgender athletes at the expense of biological females. The liar accusation is ridiculous.

In addition, you are accusing the PDGA of being cowards in the face of a dishonest mob. Not a good look.

You are really stretching it. I recognize that the pdga is not in a position to take a stand here. This was more a comment on athletic organizations as a whole. Pointing out an example of bravery does not make every else a coward.

They will have neither peace nor happiness when people deny them access to parts of public life for misguided reasons. You have not shown your work.

One groups rights can end when they infringe on another's. We make these choices all the time in our society. There is plenty of evidence to show that erring on the side of biological women is not misguided.

Here your animus for transgender people is laid bare: you would rather discriminate against intersex athletes than "accidentally" allow transgender ones to compete in the appropriate division. You'll throw one disadvantaged group under the bus just to stick it to another.

I can't imagine how anyone would interpret my post as showing animus to transgenders, and I certainly did not intend to imply that we should discriminate against intersex athletes. I meant the opposite, that we should be doing everything we can to accommodate and find the correct place for intersex individuals. I simply said that transgenders should not be allowed to piggyback off of intersex athletes to also gain access. Sorry if that was unclear, I was trying to avoid writing a thesis.

You may feel like you're being reasonable, because you're writing your ideas out in long form with good grammar and punctuation, but at the end of the day, your ideas are founded on nothing more than smoke, and needlessly hurt others.

The biological differences between men and women are not smoke. I'm not hurting anyone by saying men can't play with women. Disc golf is still a niche sport and these problems may never materialize, but if they do, hopefully someone can explain to biological females why they can't win a championship and how that doesn't hurt them.

 

[Nova P]

I haven't seen this evidence gathered by the unnamed experts. It seems like you are just assuming that the IOC has acted on sound scientific reasons.

I assume that the governing body that has a vested interest in the matter who has been working on this matter for decades knows more than a random on a forum who thinks that something "sounds unfair" and who has not put in a similar amount of effort (all alone) as have scores or hundreds or thousands of experts with a kaleidoscope of scientific degrees over prolonged periods of time.

You are not on an equal footing with them.

From what I can tell the study of the effects of hormone therapy and gender reassignment on athletic performance is still in it's infancy. The fact that the IOC recently cut it's allowable testonerone level for women in half is a good indicator that experts are still figuring this out.

I was able to find some evidence that pure running performance drops fairly significantly after taking testosterone blockers, but I don't see anything out there regarding more complex sports and skills.

I can tell you for sure that things like height, hand size, limb length, and bone structure will never change. Narrower hips, broader shoulders, stronger ligaments and tendons, and 20 plus years of muscle memory as a man all sound like an unfair advantage to me.

(Emphasis added by me.) The sentence which I have bolded is a logical fallacy, the argument from ignorance: your inability to find this information does not mean that others do not possess it or know it, so you cannot operate on the assumption that your unfounded hypothesis is the preferred one by default.

The fundamental flaw in your approach is that you're attempting to create doubt in the expertise of the, well, experts, and to substitute your less-informed supposition in its place, and to use this less-informed supposition to inform policy. A policy which conveniently targets a despised minority population whose motivations are unfairly considered to be shady or suspect.

If you know more than the army of experts, either dazzle us here with your findings -- studies, data, things that require work and study, not just supposition and things that "sound unfair" to you, or step back.

I can't imagine how anyone would interpret my post as showing animus to transgenders, and I certainly did not intend to imply that we should discriminate against intersex athletes. I meant the opposite, that we should be doing everything we can to accommodate and find the correct place for intersex individuals. I simply said that transgenders should not be allowed to piggyback off of intersex athletes to also gain access. Sorry if that was unclear, I was trying to avoid writing a thesis.

The biological differences between men and women are not smoke. I'm not hurting anyone by saying men can't play with women. Disc golf is still a niche sport and these problems may never materialize, but if they do, hopefully someone can explain to biological females why they can't win a championship and how that doesn't hurt them.

You probably don't realize it, but you're using the vocabulary of a group of people who are extremely hostile to transgender people. For example, you repeatedly refer to transgender people as "transgenders," which is considered dehumanizing, as it reduces them to an adjective. You repeatedly make a distinction between transgender women and "biological women," which is a dog-whistle term used by TERFs*, and then you state that you're "not hurting anyone by saying men can't play with women." That rather explicitly-- and I will be charitable once and assume also clumsily--implies that you consider transgender women to be not a sort of woman, but simply men.

Transgender women are regarded as women in every other aspect of their daily lives. It is discordant and distressing to then pull back on the leash and collar and say "no, not so fast, in this instance you're still a man" when it comes to one particular female space. This is inherently hurtful, demeaning, and denies their legitimacy as women.


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(*: Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists, and no, we definitely don't have the time to discuss them here.)

 

[Hampstead]

I find it curious that a lot of dudes here don't think women stand a chance if they had to compete against any generic nondescript trans competitor.

 

[Nova P]

I find it curious that a lot of dudes here don't think women stand a chance if they had to compete against any generic nondescript trans competitor.

The generic, nondescript transgender competitors fly under the radar, mostly, by being mediocre. There's legions of them out there, mostly being mediocre at whatever sport they're playing. It turns out being the best at something is really, really hard. Nobody gives them any guff.

If you really want to see the **** hit the fan, watch what happens when one of them wins.

 

[DiscFifty]

To the people that are strongly oppose to this: What are your thoughts on hormone doping, like men taking hgh? Should this not be at least as big of a concern to you? If fairness above all is the main concern, why not lobby for doping tests?

They're waiting for the sport to go financially nuclear, then it will happen.

 

[DiscFifty]

refuse to fund science publicly, then question the motives of scientists when their data doesn't match the paradigm.

wow.. that's almost a verbatim quote from just about any left/right political playbook. jeesh man...:wall:

 

[brutalbrutus]

I think Adderall is probably more of a problem on actual tourney days. Anabolic Roids and HGH, imo, would be more of a benefit when it comes to practicing. The recovery rate aspect would allow you to throw more shots per day, play more holes and just generally help you recover from long strenuous activities. Being stronger would obviously help on tourney days also but its not like big muscular guys are winning all the time now. Taking something that helps you focus would be a much better PED when it comes to the actual competition. I think EPO(which I am not actually sure what it is classified as) would benefit on tourney day. I think that's the one that would help keep the heartrate even.

 

[DiscFifty]

If you really want to see the **** hit the fan, watch what happens when one of them wins.

I agree there won't be alot... but there is certainly the possibility of a very few of them becoming extremely dominant in their sport. And at that point... will you honestly be able to say to yourself they won without having any advantage at all?

 

[beereakfast]

I agree there won't be alot... but there is certainly the possibility of a very few of them becoming extremely dominant in their sport. And at that point... will you honestly be able to say to yourself they won without having any advantage at all?

Yes.
Worry about that when it happens. Hasn't yet. I don't see it as likely.

 

[Suspect]

I suck so as a 34 year old I play in Junior events. I still lose, but I get to boss kids around and steal their lunch money.

 

[Therealgoat]

If the general consensus of the entire world's scientific community isn't enough to convince him of something, we can safely assume he'll never budge his opinion on this topic.

Wait, now I'm curious. SD...do you vaccinate?