Should ams receive payouts?

[dukdukgolf]

i wish all tourneys were payouts in funny money for Ams with no player pack. This option really wasnt in your poll.

 

[BrotherDave]

My take on the whole thing is that I think the problem (for me) lies in that tourneys feel more like work than recreation or even just competition. I can play just as competitive rounds for a lot cheaper than getting up early, driving to x course, buying gross Jersey Mike's lunch, repeat next day. Because it feels like work, than yeah, I do feel like I'm entitled to some incentive and random disc/trophy loses its appeal fast in a game where it's easy to fill your closet with discs you don't throw anymore.

So, in the grand scheme of my disc golf priorities, tourneys can kick rocks for the most part.

 

[Brodysseus]

tangent: Dri fits (and any shirt) is a major PITA for the TD. TDs need to pre-order well in advance and know the exact count of each size (including women's styles & sizes). TD's can be stuck holding a lot of expensive unused and unsellable inventory very quickly.

And that's why I picked no payout, no players pack, trophy only in the poll. I'd be fine without a players pack. I know dri-fits are a logistical nightmare, but if I was to receive a players pack, I'd rather have a dri-fit than a random disc.

 

[vonDrehle]

I play tournaments to more for the social aspect than anything. I like getting to meet new people and tournaments have gotten me to play courses I might not have otherwise. Plus they give a good excuse for a camping weekend. That said I am fine with trophy only. I play Intermediate and at all the tournaments I have played (20+) a vast majority of the people I have played with were not in desperate need of disc. I imagine a good number of the disc given out for payout are just sold or traded. As someone with anxiety f*** disc vouchers and trying to find the disc you want with 70 other people drooling over each disc in 10 bins.

I do like players packs just because I like goodie bags. But I imagine if you live in a large area a players pack can consist of pretty much donated stuff. Chains for Wishes charity tourney in Asheville does a great players pack a lot of cool little donated items.

 

[jblough]

i wish all tourneys were payouts in funny money for Ams with no player pack. This option really wasn't in your poll.

^ This. I TD local non-sanctioned monthlies for my club, and this is how we do the payouts for ams. No top placement--no swag. And everyone's cool with that; anybody who isn't moves up to the open division and competes.

But that's what works in my area. Having never run a B or C tier, I don't really feel qualified to make a determination about that realm of tournament directing.

 

[DavidSauls]

i wish all tourneys were payouts in funny money for Ams with no player pack. This option really wasnt in your poll.

This format is high on my list as well (though I'd still prefer low-entry, trophy only). I'm in an apparently distinct minority in not caring for players packs. And "funny money" is the way to go on payouts (or, for that matter, players packs, if you must have them.

 

[mashnut]

^ This. I TD local non-sanctioned monthlies for my club, and this is how we do the payouts for ams. No top placement--no swag. And everyone's cool with that; anybody who isn't moves up to the open division and competes.

But that's what works in my area. Having never run a B or C tier, I don't really feel qualified to make a determination about that realm of tournament directing.

The argument many people have made against that model is that it encourages folks to stay in a lower division where they can win something where players' packs and flatter payout gives more incentive to move up.

Personally I'd enjoy that, players' packs are pretty unnecessary to me.

 

[ejvogie]

Funny money player's packs and payouts locally. Everyone that plays seems to like the system.

 

[PhattD]

I never get why people ask if AMs "should" receive payouts. There is no moral right or wrong here. Tournaments are, generally, held to raise money for the local club, course maintenence, ect. The only thing they "should" do is what brings in the most benefit. If you keep 90% (10 % expenses) of the entry fees but only get 10 players at $10 a pop you're only making $90 towards your club. If you pay out players pack and merchandise so you only keep 40% of the entry fees but you get 30 players at $40 bucks a pop you've made $480 to help your club. There is no "obligation" to payout to AMs there is only the question of will players show up if you don't.

 

[Brodysseus]

So, in the grand scheme of my disc golf priorities, tourneys can kick rocks for the most part.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am at. I get my competitive fix through club events. But most of the time I'm discing, it's just to be outside getting some time for myself, spending time with my fiancee, or hanging with buddies.

 

[ScottyLove]

It has been done very successfully

If I'm running a tournament, best case scenario, hypothetically, perfect world, etc. etc.

1 day, 2 rounds of 18

$40 entry fee for all AMs, $70 for all Pros

100% payout for Pros, including whatever added cash (probably a C-Tier with $1000 or so added)

Trophy only for AMs. Your entry fee includes a tournament dri-fit shirt, a tournament star disc (get 3-4 molds to choose from), a buffet lunch, and plenty of water around the course. What are you competing for? handmade trophies or dyed discs for top 3 finishers in big divisions, winner only in small divisions.

Ideally, this would draw the full 72 player pool and fill up a week in advance. 15 MPO, 15 MA1, 15 MA2, 10 MA3, 5 FPO, 5 MM1, and the rest distributed between AdvMasters, AdvGrand, AdvWomen, etc.

MPO would pay out top 5, MM1 top 2, the others as needed.

I am NOT saying I could go out and do this any weekend of the year. This would be my ideal tournament if I was TD. I would hopefully be able to cover most of the expenses before the tournament even started and have enough money where I can buy things for the tournament last minute if needed. I wouldn't necessarily want any profit, but I would like to compete.

Four State Open in Joplin is run much like this only even grander. Rec division was Trophy Only with 2 extra discs in player pack... so 4 discs instead of 2. Everyone got metal mini, dry-fit shirt, lunch, and downtown party including beer, pizza, and wings. Intermediate ams and up played for merch vouchers, Open played for cash and it paid out better than most A-Tiers. 3 Rounds of 18 over two days for 180 players. Its is the model tournament in my opinion. Sold out and turned away folks. See last years results here: 4 States Open - 2012

 

[smyith]

This is all presupposing a worthy payout for them. But, we are talking about Ams here and their choices/motivations for attending events.

I wonder if there were 2 PDGA sanctioned C-Tier Am events in opposite directions 30 miles away to chose from.
**One course is an open, short, flat, boring course (2.25 rated) with a $40 entry fee, $30 players pack and 150% payout.
**The other is a 4.75 rated course (wooded mix, hilly, grassy, nice tees, clean bathrooms, quiet, pretty, nice signs) with $15 entry fee, tourney stamped DX Roc for players pack, and with prizes of only homemade trophies for the top 3 finishers in each division.

Who would get more players and why? This is what I am wondering.

you know what the sad fact is....sigh. a handful of players would show up at the 2nd option and a ton at the 1st.

 

[Pwingles]

Four State Open in Joplin is run much like this only even grander. Rec division was Trophy Only with 2 extra discs in player pack... so 4 discs instead of 2. Everyone got metal mini, dry-fit shirt, lunch, and downtown party including beer, pizza, and wings. Intermediate ams and up played for merch vouchers, Open played for cash and it paid out better than most A-Tiers. 3 Rounds of 18 over two days for 180 players. Its is the model tournament in my opinion. Sold out and turned away folks. See last years results here: 4 States Open - 2012

Its gonna be bad ass this year. They added neosho, so now there are 3 18's and another 95 spots, gonna be sweet

 

[Dave242]

you know what the sad fact is....sigh. a handful of players would show up at the 2nd option and a ton at the 1st.

I'm not sure exactly where your perspective on this was developed, but if it has been in the greater Chicago area that makes perfect sense. The vast majority of players have probably not traveled outside the area and do not really know what good courses are. They are conditioned to think DG on mediocre courses is what it is all about.....so then the allure of prizes shines that much brighter.

I am not arguing at all with your perspective....just speculating on and chewing over how pre-formed expectations plays into this all. I may well be off base on my thoughts. But, your perspective seems different from several specific examples David Sauls put forth.

 

[Future_Primitive]

i wish all tourneys were payouts in funny money for Ams with no player pack. This option really wasnt in your poll.

This format is high on my list as well (though I'd still prefer low-entry, trophy only). I'm in an apparently distinct minority in not caring for players packs. And "funny money" is the way to go on payouts (or, for that matter, players packs, if you must have them.

I also can't stand Player Packs and wish there was a tournament locally that would try it without a player pack and hefty entry fee.

I like competing, I like socializing and I like the tourney experience. But I don't like getting a player pack for $35-$50 for my entry fee and being told what an incredible value it is when I don't like or need a single thing in the pack. I don't care what it retails for, I simply dont want your shirt and stamped DX disc. I just want to play for a reasonable fee.

I would be thrilled to find a tournament with a smaller entry fee and either Trophy Only or pay out in funny money to the top 25% or so in each division. I would drive 1-2 hours away from home if I saw one. Not really a fan of the double dipping, getting Player Pack and potential Funny Money seems like overkill.

Ideal situation, let me sign up and enter for $15 - $20 and receive NO player pack, disc and/or shirt. If we get 20 Ams to enter, pay out the Top 5 in funny money. If I finish Top 5, awesome! If I don't, oh well, still had a blast and it only cost me $15-$20.

 

[smyith]

I'm not sure exactly where your perspective on this was developed, but if it has been in the greater Chicago area that makes perfect sense. The vast majority of players have probably not traveled outside the area and do not really know what good courses are. They are conditioned to think DG on mediocre courses is what it is all about.....so then the allure of prizes shines that much brighter.

You are definitely correct that alot of Chicago area players do not know what a quality course is. however, out of all the places i have lived, Chicago players are the biggest supporters of duece or die courses. a common theme is "if its not reachable in one shot its a dumb hole." We also don't have much to chose from for true quality though.

I am not arguing at all with your perspective....just speculating on and chewing over how pre-formed expectations plays into this all. I may well be off base on my thoughts. But, your perspective seems different from several specific examples David Sauls put forth.

i am not sure what you mean by this.

I'm in an apparently distinct minority in not caring for players packs. And "funny money" is the way to go on payouts

i am in the minority with DS. players packs are unnecessary. funny money all the way.
the only place i differ from most everybody is that i think the payouts go tooooooooooo! deep. 45-50% is dumb, higher percentage payouts and less people paid out.

 

[smyith]

i had another thought as well.
i used to do jiu-jitsu tournaments. that was usually a $100+ entry fee, no payouts, and trophies for the top 3 in a division. hundreds of people participate in them! and honestly the biggest draw for me was winning the trophy, which happened to be a samurai sword.
so the thought crossed my mind...would trophy only be more acceptable if the trophies were something more than just a plaque of sorts?

 

[bnbanbury]

the only place i differ from most everybody is that i think the payouts go tooooooooooo! deep. 45-50% is dumb, higher percentage payouts and less people paid out.

I personally think that approach highlights the worst aspects of amateurs getting payout. It just increases the chances that high rated ams will stay in a division for giant payouts and leaves the guys who typically compete for one of the last payout spots often walking away with nothing. Also, nothing says that players packs can't be funny money or vouchers. I've been to several tourneys where this has been the approach.

 

[smyith]

I personally think that approach highlights the worst aspects of amateurs getting payout. It just increases the chances that high rated ams will stay in a division for giant payouts and leaves the guys who typically compete for one of the last payout spots often walking away with nothing. Also, nothing says that players packs can't be funny money or vouchers. I've been to several tourneys where this has been the approach.

why should you get anything for a mediocre performance? paying out that far is like telling your kid "good job kido you got a D on your paper, have a cookie."

this is coming from someone that hardly cashes playing ADV. and I don't think that there are baggers in our system, especially in our open divisions.

this is going to be harsh but its a bit of honesty. those people who cry bagger and see begging as some kind of issue are just jealous or upset that it is not themselves in that position. whether or not they consciously realize it is meaningless. I come from a sports background if you are not in the Top 3 then you lost, not that the people who beat you bagged down to win, they bested you on that day. truly and honestly ask yourself why you have an issue with bagging, and don't kid yourself into taking some noble position.

 

[mashnut]

I like seeing a flat but deep payout in the lower am divisions, rather than huge rewards for doing well in novice, rec or intermediate. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other in advanced or open, I'm ok with the flat payout or a top heavy payout that doesn't go as deep in those uncapped divisions.