PDGA Major: 2022 PDGA Champions Cup Apr 14-17

[DanJon]

This Elaine King/PDGA situation is even more laughable when you realize that Elaine literally mentioned Tattar's daughter being with her during earlier round broadcasts.

Why the sudden change of heart during the final round?

Clearly it threw off Kristin's mental game and kept her focus elsewhere.

It just reeks of gamesmanship.

Appearances are everything when there can be potential conflicts of interest.

This appears to be pretty sketchy regardless of intent.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Clearly it threw off Kristin's mental game and kept her focus elsewhere.

I wanna see where this manifests, "clearly". Granted, I didnt watch the coverage, but again, looking at her stats until the putt on 18th hole you would never know anything was going on.

 

[dehaas]

Based on the information that has been made public so far I think the most questionable part to the story was Elaine's involvement.

Once the TD was made aware they're forced to take some kind of action. A DQ wasn't going to happen, but a rule was not being followed. Officials enforcing rules has been a hot topic lately, and I think giving her daughter a sign to carry was an honest effort to curb any anxiety while still making sure the rules aren't ignored.

I don't think she was necessarily trying to narc Tattar out or swing the momentum to Paige. I think the intent was good, she truly didn't want Tattar to be penalized but from either position getting involved remotely was not appropriate. As a commentator your job is to describe the competition to the audience, not become involved and potentially impact the competition itself. As VP of the PDGA board, there is a tournament staff on site to handle matters. Let's not forget this event was at the IDGC, aka PDGA headquarters. Let the event staff manage the event, and if they can't successfully pull it off, then that's an entirely different conversation.

Absolutely no need for her to get involved. The optics of it look terrible for her personally and the PDGA itself.

Situations like this just further build the case for the DGPT to be all encompassing and disregard the PDGA altogether. DGPT seems to be most concerned with how the live product is received by its audience. I could see situations down the road where they might want to adopt their own rules because they feel those by the PDGA cramp the style of their "product".

 

[DiscGolfCraig]

Call her out by name. It's Elaine King.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

I would imagine that the Competition Committee is responsible for the Competition Manual.

https://www.pdga.com/volunteers/committees

Thanks! I still don't see where the goal/mission/responsibility of each committee is outlined however.

I have noticed that the Assistant TD of this tourney is on the Competition Committee. Is it unreasonable to expect him to recognize that the woman leading the tournament was breaking a rule he just helped create?

The TD of this tournament is also on the Pro Touring Players Committee. I would've thought that commitment would involve more empathy toward difficulties facing touring players.

Perhaps if KT jams that winning putt home, this all never comes to light. But she didn't, and now it just seems unfortunate all the way around. I guess I am just trying to understand what we have all learned from this and how we(the PDGA) can get better from this.

 

[shakatak]

On coverage they said he has all of 6 career wins, all C tiers. Likely a regional player.

He WAS a regional player, now he's a touring player. He's had 5 DGPT rounds and 2 A-tier rounds (The Memorial) above 1030 in his last 6 events.

 

[seedlings]

He WAS a regional player, now he's a touring player. He's had 5 DGPT rounds and 2 A-tier rounds (The Memorial) above 1030 in his last 6 events.

And 100% C1X over 4 rounds. Gavin was fun to watch!

 

[Dcinmd]

Thanks! I still don't see where the goal/mission/responsibility of each committee is outlined however.

Pretty clear in the BOD meeting minutes if you dug a bit further.

https://www.pdga.com/files/2021-11-5bodsummitminutes_final.pdf

All minutes are posted to the following location.
https://www.pdga.com/board-of-directors/minutes-and-motions

Competition Manual Revisions - MS/LN
MS and LN led a discussion on proposed 2023 CM revisions presented for consideration by the
Competition Committee. The group spent a significant amount of time discussing each proposed revision
and voted to approve or disapprove the continued development of each proposal by the Competition
Committee for final consideration during the 2022 Spring Summit.

 

[_MTL_]

The TD of this tournament is also on the Pro Touring Players Committee. I would've thought that commitment would involve more empathy toward difficulties facing touring players.

Provide a better solution than "we aren't going to DQ you and we've provided an alternative solution for your daughter to be no more than 30 feet from you" that is allowed by the current rules and I'm all ears.

 

[_MTL_]

I want to point out all the many many many many positives from the event.

- The players loved the event.
- The payout was the third highest payout of all time
- There was not a single provisional the entire event - this speaks to how clear things were.
- The course was incredible and show cased the thousands of hours staff put into it.
- We donated $1,500 to the local club and the local women's club made over $2,000 in profit from their on course concessions.
- The spectators were given an incredible show and got to meet so many players.
- We had over 130 volunteers who all left with clothing and merch and were provided a free meal.
- In addition to the payout, all players received a free meal at the players meeting. We also gave out $2,000 in hot round bonuses, $1,700 in longest throw in bonuses and a total of three grills (two to players, one to a volunteer).
- Major champions were crowned.

If all that we want to talk about is a rule situation that was handled in 15 seconds in accordance with the rules and provided a very logical outcome, that's fine. But that's not what I'll remember.

 

[Flick Maniac]

You guys still remember Val Jenkins being DQd because her caddie had an open beer can on her person?

Kinda similar situation.

Edit, if you dont: https://www.pdga.com/announcements/statement-valarie-jenkins-disqualification-santa-cruz-masters-cup

 

[crd 81]

Call her out by name. It's Elaine King.

This is definitely one of those examples where trying to do good has bad consequences.

King showed a lack of good judgment by overstepping her boundaries, showing a conflict of interest by contacting the other player's caddy, and tampering with a character's play during the last round. Let the TD or another player call it. If anything, give Tattar a warning after the round is finished.

People are going to look at King and wonder about her judgment and competence in other things and/or wonder if there was something else going on, even if there wasn't anything nefarious at all.

Best course of action for King is to apologize. Admittedly, we have all screwed up in some way in our lives so no one is perfect.

 

[Ryan P.]

I want to point out all the many many many many positives from the event.

- The players loved the event.
- The payout was the third highest payout of all time
- There was not a single provisional the entire event - this speaks to how clear things were.
- The course was incredible and show cased the thousands of hours staff put into it.
- We donated $1,500 to the local club and the local women's club made over $2,000 in profit from their on course concessions.
- The spectators were given an incredible show and got to meet so many players.
- We had over 130 volunteers who all left with clothing and merch and were provided a free meal.
- In addition to the payout, all players received a free meal at the players meeting. We also gave out $2,000 in hot round bonuses, $1,700 in longest throw in bonuses and a total of three grills (two to players, one to a volunteer).
- Major champions were crowned.

If all that we want to talk about is a rule situation that was handled in 15 seconds in accordance with the rules and provided a very logical outcome, that's fine. But that's not what I'll remember.

Well stated. People generally talk about the very worst and very best, leaving out all the stuff in the middle. I heard of a few good changes that you/the TD made about this tourney (some you listed above, others you didn't). Props sir.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Awesome event. Its just that nowadays it seems that after final day tournament threads dwindle to include rules snafus (maybe a strong word but couldnt think of better) in addition of the previous favorites, foot faults and spitouts.

Which seems like this tourney had none, could it be??

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Provide a better solution than "we aren't going to DQ you and we've provided an alternative solution for your daughter to be no more than 30 feet from you" that is allowed by the current rules and I'm all ears.

Are you not able to enforce Rule 3.03 B. "If a player violates the above standard, the Tournament Director may opt, in their sole discretion, to issue a tournament warning for a first offense (except as specified in 3.03.C). Otherwise, the Tournament Director will immediately disqualify the player.

Perhaps I am missing the part where she must be disqualified to continue? Were you not able to issue a warning and state that future rounds caddied by her daughter would be disqualified? I do apologize to you Robert if there is a rule that states you must be disqualified for an underage caddie.

I'm sure you are getting more flack than you deserve in this situation. Kristin's initial post before being coerced into revising and your previous reputation likely contributed. It is unfortunate that this issue has tainted what was an entertaining event and otherwise successful event.

Selectively enforced rules have been an ongoing issue that's been slowly simmering but tough conversations could prevent it from becoming a boil.

 

[_MTL_]

Are you not able to enforce Rule 3.03 B. "If a player violates the above standard, the Tournament Director may opt, in their sole discretion, to issue a tournament warning for a first offense (except as specified in 3.03.C). Otherwise, the Tournament Director will immediately disqualify the player.

Perhaps I am missing the part where she must be disqualified to continue? Were you not able to issue a warning and state that future rounds caddied by her daughter would be disqualified? I do apologize to you Robert if there is a rule that states you must be disqualified for an underage caddie.

I'm sure you are getting more flack than you deserve in this situation. Kristin's initial post before being coerced into revising and your previous reputation likely contributed. It is unfortunate that this issue has tainted what was an entertaining event and otherwise successful event.

Selectively enforced rules have been an ongoing issue that's been slowly simmering but tough conversations could prevent it from becoming a boil.

Like stated in the Ultiworld article, I was the only person capable of a DQ. I can't control if someone off staff says that would happen.

Our immediate concern was providing a reasonable solution to a touchy situation while remaining compliant with the rules of play.

Could I have issued a warning? of course. But, as the rules stated, it was my discretion. And some simple decency and logic was applied here. Kristin, as usual, was a professional so there was no need to move forward with anything but a quiet sign.

 

[Mulligan]

Keep spectators on the sidelines. Keep kids and dogs in the gallery.

Sure, but by your own lengthy story we know that there are always exceptions for dudes in disc golf (and their friends) that behave badly. I literally quit playing tournaments because of the widespread bad behavior by man children.

And sure, we don't need to have poorly behaving children running around on the tee, and dogs are a def no way, but we're talking about something that was a non issue and a Mom with her kid in a different country. It's not a situation where they are just at an event up the street from their house and grandpa can watch her for a bit. if I was told my kid had to go hang out with some stranger while I played a top tiered event I'd have walked off.

It was a total non issue until it got Karen'd up the flagpole.

 

[ru4por]

Sure, but by your own lengthy story we know that there are always exceptions for dudes in disc golf (and their friends) that behave badly. I literally quit playing tournaments because of the widespread bad behavior by man children.

And sure, we don't need to have poorly behaving children running around on the tee, and dogs are a def no way, but we're talking about something that was a non issue and a Mom with her kid in a different country. It's not a situation where they are just at an event up the street from their house and grandpa can watch her for a bit. if I was told my kid had to go hang out with some stranger while I played a top tiered event I'd have walked off.

It was a total non issue until it got Karen'd up the flagpole.

I understand your feelings. But, they have nothing to do with the application of rules. Children are not allow to be caddies in these events. That might be sad, it might be heartbreaking, it might be inconvenient....but, that is not what the TD has to consider. I find it amusing that you consider well behaved kids ok, but poorly behaved kids and dogs a no go. I don't play sanctioned events to deal with anybody's children, well behaved or not. It is the players JOB to know the rules. Yes, she could have walked off.

Again....maybe the rule needs to be revised, looked at or revoked. But until that time it is unacceptable.

You, be disgruntled at someone calling a violation, is a far bigger issue in the game than this rule, IMO.

 

[reezyF]

I also noticed several folks walking with the players - or caddying - and wearing things that seemed out of place. Some DGCR thread from a few months back had someone asking how they should prepare to be a spectator at a tourney and one of the responses said something about wearing earth tones and toned down clothes - something I had never considered before

Fast forward to this event where Babcock's final round caddy was wearing some "HEY GUYS MATT HERE" black tee shirt with a huge goofy selfie on the back.

Someone else pointed out Ms. Dickerson wearing a bright blue tanktop, though she wasnt caddying for chris at any point.

Then there was Corey Ellis' lady friend who was dressed in bright clothes and lots of skin showing every time i saw her.

It made me think- if there are no rules being enforced as to what your friend/caddy can wear couldn't you as a player potentially use that to your advantage? If I had an attractive person in bright clothes walking with me, perhaps that achieves the same thing DGCR poster from months ago was trying to prevent - unwanted distractions for my opponents.

Ultimately, seems like there should be a dress code for those allowed to be in the playing group and it should probably be enforced

 

[Spectacledbear]

Not suspicious at all to text Paiges caddie to get Tattars daughter removed 3 and a half rounds into a tournament.

She was okay with it earlier, but then all of a sudden...