PDGA Major: 2022 PDGA Champions Cup Apr 14-17

[shakatak]

Imagine if the PDGA and DGPT turned a blind eye to a top player's manager yelling, "WOOOOOO!!!!!" 17 times per round.

I keep seeing this referenced but didn't see it. Who was it?

 

[BillFleming]

Thanks for the clarification. Either way, I believe the Competition manual need an update since there seems to be some kind of conflicting wording about the 13 year old restriction/caddie part.

After all Kristen receieved a caddie tag for her daughter, probably to be sure she offically had the right to stay with her during the round. Already here the age issue should have been lifted, if it should have been at all.

Not being there, I believe the players would have just said "I need a tag for my caddie" and the tag was provided. The tags may have even been provided in the days leading up to the tournament. So, the TD or whomever was handing out/sending the tags probably didn't know Kristen's caddie was underage.

Maybe that needs to be included in the future when applying/asking for a caddie tag...have a checkbox that states your caddie is 13 years or older at the time of the tournament.

It probably should have been caught prior to or during the first round....I don't know how old her daughter looks, so maybe people didn't think about it....or they figured it was okay since she had a caddie tag. But I am surprised that the starter or TD didn't catch it when Kristen started her first round.

 

[Flick Maniac]

On Smashboxx they said the kid wasnt there for rounds 1-3

 

[Streets]

I keep seeing this referenced but didn't see it. Who was it?

Ricky's agent/life coach/2nd mother/etc Ari apparently makes this loud "whoop" sound every time Ricky throws.

 

[Nale72]

Occasionally inconsistencies pop up where a rule change is made in one spot and then a related rule that also needs to be updated is missed. This type of review is difficult.

One of the things the RC tried to accomplish in 2022 for the ORDG was to root out inconsistencies or places where the Q&A was establishing a rule that was not actually in the rules. I will pass along the inconsistency on young caddies to the Comp Committee.

As a national referee in golf I know how easy references/inconsitencies are to miss when rules are updated. That is also why I try to be explicit and as informative as possible when bringing them up, and why I quoted you so my point is easy to understand and brought forward to the proper people and hopefully get it "fixed".

I tried to lift this one (and the one earlier about the supporting points vs /run-up) in a hopefully informative and not too negative way. Hoping to both help people understand why these two rules might be extra easy to misunderstand, saying different things in different places, and in the hope of getting them fixed (which went extremly fast in the first case).

 

[_MTL_]

All players were given caddy badges when they checked in for the event (which was M-W prior to the event) and then instructed them to then assign to their caddy. At no point did the event hand a caddy badge to her daughter. Because players change caddies within in an event for many reasons, this seemed like the most logical solution.

You need to understand what our starter had to do within 3 minutes to understand how this was "missed"
- Identify all 4 players in the group
- Find a Udisc scorer, a PDGA live scorer and 2 official scorers. the two forms of digital requires passwords and logging in.
- Clarify player pronunciations of names.
- Go over last minute adjustments (for example, one round we were going over how to get to a shuttle to your car in the event of a weather stoppage).

Players are not required to identify who their caddy is.

All of this is going on with 20 - 30 media, including the DGN talking to our starter about when they are live and ready to throw, 10 staff / volunteers and 100 spectators. Plus hole 1 is right by hole 14, meaning we had other players and volunteers there as well.

Our starter is on the comp committee and ironically the one who introduced the 13 year old rule. If there is one person on the planet who knows this rule, it's him.

So if I was asked a yes or no question of "did the event miss that her daughter was caddying" the answer is yes. But there is so much context needed.

Saying that, I believe strongly that there will be more vetting of caddies in the comp manual next year. It's my job as the TD to think of everything and have contingencies in place. But I'm not sure how that is possible. especially when caddy identification isn't really required.

 

[ru4por]

All players were given caddy badges when they checked in for the event (which was M-W prior to the event) and then instructed them to then assign to their caddy. At no point did the event hand a caddy badge to her daughter. Because players change caddies within in an event for many reasons, this seemed like the most logical solution.

You need to understand what our starter had to do within 3 minutes to understand how this was "missed"
- Identify all 4 players in the group
- Find a Udisc scorer, a PDGA live scorer and 2 official scorers. the two forms of digital requires passwords and logging in.
- Clarify player pronunciations of names.
- Go over last minute adjustments (for example, one round we were going over how to get to a shuttle to your car in the event of a weather stoppage).

Players are not required to identify who their caddy is.

All of this is going on with 20 - 30 media, including the DGN talking to our starter about when they are live and ready to throw, 10 staff / volunteers and 100 spectators. Plus hole 1 is right by hole 14, meaning we had other players and volunteers there as well.

Our starter is on the comp committee and ironically the one who introduced the 13 year old rule. If there is one person on the planet who knows this rule, it's him.

So if I was asked a yes or no question of "did the event miss that her daughter was caddying" the answer is yes. But there is so much context needed.

Saying that, I believe strongly that there will be more vetting of caddies in the comp manual next year. It's my job as the TD to think of everything and have contingencies in place. But I'm not sure how that is possible. especially when caddy identification isn't really required.

Nice explanation.

Infractions and violations are to be monitored and called by players. This is a self enforced game. It is not the job of the starter, TD, officials.... to seek out and call infractions. It is their job to clarify and mediate in cases of ambiguity. This is fairly simple. You cannot have a child designated as your caddy. It was identified and resolved in the best possible fashion, IMO. The real shame is the failure of Tattar to follow the rule and the card to enforce it. That is a FAR bigger issue in our game, again....IMO.

All the ancillary discussion of timing, who identified the infraction, how it was brought to the groups attention....is ALL a result of the cards failure to identify and act upon the violation. Perhaps we should be discussing punitive action on the card for failure to enforce and call the violation?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

MTL - thanks for taking the time to walk us through and explain your perspective. Ends up being a tough situation no matter how you look at it.

 

[dehaas]

I totally agree rules are there for the players to enforce, however I think this particular situation illustrates a lot of the recent growing pains.

Kristin has said herself she should've known the rule. It's a new and obscure one, but she understands ultimately it's up to her as the player to know and follow the rules. I think everybody is ok with that piece.

Personally I think giving her daughter the quiet sign was about the best outcome to be fair for all parties involved. Most seem to be ok with that piece too.

The manner in which it was brought up is the hot topic. You have an outsider impacting tournament play. An outsider who took it upon themselves to message players during the event. Yes she reached out to multiple parties before reaching somebody, and I honestly don't think she was doing it to intentionally put Kristin on tilt. Think about that, can anybody here say they'd text a friend knowing they were in the middle of an event, regardless of the context? I wouldn't.

This person is a competitor, commentator, and holds a high position within the PDGA. She said numerous times during the podcast linked above that she sent the text as a person and not tied to the DGPT or PDGA. I can understand her concern for a fellow competitor, but she also said she was trying to be discreet and not notify event staff. It's just a bad look all around. You don't get to pick and choose which hats you're putting on and taking off when you say or do certain things. Whether she likes it or not we're at a place where her actions reflect upon the DGPT and PDGA also.

You could tell Terry and JVD were trying to ask questions in a certain way to get her to understand why people were taking an issue with her actions but she just wasn't getting it. That is the problem, somebody who has influence not being able to take a step back and understand the big picture issues that the situation opened the door for.

Growing pains

 

[biscoe]

Nice explanation.

Infractions and violations are to be monitored and called by players. This is a self enforced game. It is not the job of the starter, TD, officials.... to seek out and call infractions. It is their job to clarify and mediate in cases of ambiguity. This is fairly simple. You cannot have a child designated as your caddy. It was identified and resolved in the best possible fashion, IMO. The real shame is the failure of Tattar to follow the rule and the card to enforce it. That is a FAR bigger issue in our game, again....IMO.

All the ancillary discussion of timing, who identified the infraction, how it was brought to the groups attention....is ALL a result of the cards failure to identify and act upon the violation. Perhaps we should be discussing punitive action on the card for failure to enforce and call the violation?

Can the card enforce Competition Manual violations? I am not sure they can in the same sense they enforce Rulebook infractions. CM 3.03.B seems to cede that to the TD. It may be that all the players can do is tattle.

 

[jakebake91]

Personally, I think it would have been easier to explain why the call WASN'T made, as opposed to trying to justify the call.

Yes rules are rules. Definitely understand that, and I have absolutely zero qualms with the rule at all. But if a rule, any rule, goes unenforced for that long, and now all of a sudden we decide there's an issue? That's shady, and no great way to spin it.

I would have not called it, issued a warning/notice post round, and let it be. I feel like the optics on that are much prettier.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm only an enthusiastic fan.

I also give KT a ton of credit for her class in that situation. As a father, I don't think I would have been quite as understanding. Especially given all the circumstances. My response would have been "I'm very sorry there was this misunderstanding, it won't happen again. However, there's zero chance on gods green earth my young child is going to go stand amongst a big group of total strangers. If it's truly a problem, DQ me, and see how well that goes over with the public."

 

[runningoz]

Can we just get rid of caddies? I'm tired of being asked by rec players if they can bring a caddy to the tournament.....

 

[ru4por]

Can the card enforce Competition Manual violations? I am not sure they can in the same sense they enforce Rulebook infractions. CM 3.03.B seems to cede that to the TD. It may be that all the players can do is tattle.

Good point.

3.03 Player Misconduct

All players must adhere to a professional standard of sporting ethics, courtesy, and integrity while participating in a PDGA-sanctioned event and when commenting to the media. Conduct that violates this standard is subject to courtesy violations called by players (see 812, Courtesy), penalties issued by the Tournament Director, and any further disciplinary action deemed appropriate by the PDGA.

Ultimately, it is still the player that would have to alert tournament staff of the misconduct. Penalty is assess by the TD.

 

[ru4por]

Personally, I think it would have been easier to explain why the call WASN'T made, as opposed to trying to justify the call.

Yes rules are rules. Definitely understand that, and I have absolutely zero qualms with the rule at all. But if a rule, any rule, goes unenforced for that long, and now all of a sudden we decide there's an issue? That's shady, and no great way to spin it.

I would have not called it, issued a warning/notice post round, and let it be. I feel like the optics on that are much prettier.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm only an enthusiastic fan.

I also give KT a ton of credit for her class in that situation. As a father, I don't think I would have been quite as understanding. Especially given all the circumstances. My response would have been "I'm very sorry there was this misunderstanding, it won't happen again. However, there's zero chance on gods green earth my young child is going to go stand amongst a big group of total strangers. If it's truly a problem, DQ me, and see how well that goes over with the public."

I think this speaks volumes, to the difference in the cultures of our countries.

 

[_MTL_]

P

I would have not called it, issued a warning/notice post round, and let it be. I feel like the optics on that are much prettier.

I get this, but you have to understand what is going on. We aren't there and are only hearing things second hand. We don't know what she has been told and by whom in the moment. My job as the TD is to make a firm ruling and inform the player of it.

 

[Shallows]

I don't know Elaine King. I don't know the situation that resulted in her decisions. I don't know the facts surrounding the phone call. See, it is OK to just admit you don't have a clue.

Elaine King has been nothing but a terrific ambassador of our game. I would think your speculation would run more toward, her looking to actions that protected the integrity of disc golf and players.

But.......she is a women and all that, right? And you are just a sexist, trying to degrade women to make yourself feel better.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See how that conjecture, supposition and innuendo stuff works?

Nobody is more critical of women than other women. Especially older childless women to younger mothers…

 

[biscoe]

I know Elaine King fairly well and she is both very smart and kindhearted- no way her intention was to disrupt anything or anyone- quite the opposite i believe.

I also know MTL a bit and the same goes for him... (well...maybe not as smart as Elaine ). People are behaving as if the child was tossed into a detention center when in actuality she was within 50 feet or so of her Mom the whole time.

My only question about the whole thing is whether players should be expected to ID their caddies pre-round moving forward.

 

[Streets]

Nobody is more critical of women than other women. Especially older childless women to younger mothers…

You and SpecBear need to put your tinfoil hats up.

Knowing EK's reputation in the sport, I highly doubt she had any insidious or petty motivations. Was the timing unfortunate? Highly. It was a mess that should have been addressed post round, quietly.

 

[Nale72]

If Kristin hadn't been on the lead card it most likely wouldn't have happened like this. And I'm all about following rules. Even those who are in the competition manual deemed as Courtesy violations. Even rules I believe are silly But then all these rules should be followed, by every card.

In my mind it gets a bit unfair when some players are held to a higher level then others. But I guess that is what happens when the players in the cards are supposed to be the referees, because if some rules are followed or not depends on which card mates you get. But in this case all of a sudden it isn't up to the players on the card anymore, but a third party watching calling/texting in. I just believe that is more unfair than normal.

And Elaine said in the interview on SmashboxxTV, when she texted all these people she wasn't sure it was a rule violation and she wasn't sure what penalty could be deemed if it was a violation. But she anyway texted a competitors caddie (among others) asking her to notify Kristen during play of final round on the lead card of a major that she had to make sure her daughter didn't caddie for her or she was at risk of being dq:ed. Having a PDGA VP tell you that must have gotten her shaken up, even if it was true or not. But Kristen not knowing the rule I bet she thought Elaine knew what she was talking about. However, saying this I'm pretty confident Elaind did this in good will, with no bad intentions. It just didn't turn out the way she thought.

And why aren't anyone calling/texting about Babcocks or Dickersons caddies not following the dress code? Isn't that just as obvious? That is a rule violation of the same magnitude as Kristins caddie. Why isn't that as important as making Kristin give her daughter away in the middle of a major final round lead card?

I believe i've said it before. I agree Kristin should have known the new rule. All players should know the rules. But then again every other player on the card and PDGA/TD following the card from the start should have known it also and should have brought it up earlier. And if it like in this case is something that in practice never had been more than a warning, I can see no reason whatsoever (as long as her daughter behaved) to bring it up during the round, making her separate from her daughter there. Take it after the round since it wasn't brought up before the round.

 

[DanJon]

Brittany was Chris' caddie according to her interview on the Nick and Matt show. She also mentioned when she is in a media role on the course, she's not allowed near Chris.

So according the the rules, he should have been given a courtesy violation due to her not following dress code?

Doesn't that seem like double standards?