DGPT: 2020 MVP Open at Maple Hill Sept 11-13

[Discraft Dad]

As the scuba diver at Maple Hill, I can assure you that that 'second pond' has water in it every bit as wet, murky, and leech-filled as the primary (for hole 8) pond.

Seeing as you are more in the loop than anyone else on this forum, was McBeth in the right? If I was another player and the TD reversed a call that HE made, I would be furious.

 

[ru4por]

What was the cash line? Who got paid and who didn't? Were the ties broken correctly? There was no awards ceremony so what if I left after my round was over, and I'm wondering if I got paid, and how much?

Payouts are uploaded promptly after every single other PDGA Major and National Tour event, as well as every other DGPT event. So why does the MVP Open fail?

I guess I am operating under the assumption that, like all tournaments, this was already decided, posted and completed. Posting to the PDGA website is simply public documentation. Maybe I am wrong.

 

[brutalbrutus]

"If tee shot lands OB in the water, proceed to DZ1 shooting 3. "- seems pretty cut and dried to me... or is the second pond full of whipped cream or Bevel beer? (which is not to say that the rule shouldn't be written better)

There is an OB line short of the pond where his disc landed. So its like missing a mando and then your disc also lands in an OB. You take the penalty which happened first.

Now why is the course rule written that way, is another discussion. Maybe Dodge doesn't like island greens?

I would imagine there will be a new rule next year that any disc that lands in any OB will proceed to the drop zone.

 

[biscoe]

There is an OB line short of the pond where his disc landed. So its like missing a mando and then your disc also lands in an OB. You take the penalty which happened first.

I don't think so. It's not like missing a mando in that missing a mando involves the flight path of the shot rather than the outcome. The only relation the flight path has to an OB disc is in determining the lie if you are using traditional OB rules rather than having something else explicitly stated. IMO something else was explicitly stated.

Now why is the course rule written that way, is another discussion. Maybe Dodge doesn't like island greens?

I would imagine there will be a new rule next year that any disc that lands in any OB will proceed to the drop zone.

IMO the likely intent was for the next shot in this case to be played as traditional OB. Also IMO the verbiage which clearly describes a result from being OB "on land" and a different one from "in water" does not match the intent and the verbiage is all anyone has to go by.

 

[glassila]

I'm guessing when Dodge wrote the OB rule for hole 8 he didn't foresee shots going into a different pond when he wrote "in the water".
At the time it happened he ruled that way, but afterwards he decided that traditional OB rules should apply since McBeth's throw had flown in-bounds for a good length so he reversed his decision.
In my opinion he ruled correctly when he reversed his first ruling.

 

[texasissouth]

I don't think so. It's not like missing a mando in that missing a mando involves the flight path of the shot rather than the outcome. The only relation the flight path has to an OB disc is in determining the lie if you are using traditional OB rules rather than having something else explicitly stated. IMO something else was explicitly stated.



IMO the likely intent was for the next shot in this case to be played as traditional OB. Also IMO the verbiage which clearly describes a result from being OB "on land" and a different one from "in water" does not match the intent and the verbiage is all anyone has to go by.

I think the issue is the coloring in the caddy book.
So anything past the OB land line is tinted red and defined as "OB Area" as opposed to blue which is defined as "OB Water". This includes the long pond, which is tinted red.
The caddy book for hole 8 just says "over the string line" is OB. I can see how it would be weird to have a section of OB within a different section of OB and have it play different. Especially because that long pond isn't mentioned, so technically he is both "over the string line" AND "in the water". Which they didn't account for.

Edit, it does say "If OB on land, traditional OB rules apply" whoops. Still they don't define that pond as water funnily enough.

 

[DiscFifty]

I might guess most don't care about seeing their names on the PDGA tournament page. You know where you finished and got paid out....why would they care what anyone else made??

Your disdain for (watching, being a fan, etc) all things pro disc golf fogs your thought process a bit. Spectators / fans enjoy seeing how much money their favorite players make per event, especially in non team sports.

 

[txmxer]

I would agree with the corrected ruling on #8.

From what I could see on the replay, it seems like Fish brought the issue to the table. Was he helping PMc to avoid a penalty? Meaning that Paul was set to play his original throw, but as the rule was initially interpreted he would have been penalized--by calling out the written rule, Paul was saved from the potential penalty.

On the round 1 deal with GG--I agree that he got screwed on that. I was really enjoying watching him play--I felt he showed a lot of skill beside just being a big bomb thrower.

Back to McBeth--watching him play and when rules issues come up for other players, he seems to be fairly front and center discussing OB or whatever the question is. We aren't there and don't hear all of the discussion, but it seems to me that he tends to favor the player in assessing situations which seems very sportsmanlike. I could be wrong--just my impression.

 

[Ryan C]

Back to McBeth--watching him play and when rules issues come up for other players, he seems to be fairly front and center discussing OB or whatever the question is. We aren't there and don't hear all of the discussion, but it seems to me that he tends to favor the player in assessing situations which seems very sportsmanlike. I could be wrong--just my impression.

I agree. Paul is a veteran, and I've seen him correctly argue the rules a bunch of times live. I've even seen him correctly give the benefit of the doubt to a player in a tight race situation, where it was not to his advantage. I have never seen anything to indicate he isn't a really good sportsman in these situations.

 

[ru4por]

Your disdain for (watching, being a fan, etc) all things pro disc golf fogs your thought process a bit. Spectators / fans enjoy seeing how much money their favorite players make per event, especially in non team sports.

Your high level psychoanalysis aside. :doh: I will tend to side with the TD, who has a merciless job, with endless tasks, over your piqued curiosity.

While I don't really understand the level of fanboy, that requires you to need to know who made how much money, I appreciate your enthusiasm for it. :thmbup: But, I fail to see why you can't hold out for a few days, while far more important tournament tasks are attended to.

 

[DiscFifty]

Your high level psychoanalysis aside. :doh:

No psychoanalysis needed, your points of view in regards to the pro side of disc golf are very well documented. Especially when it comes to spectating the sport.

While I don't really understand the level of fanboy, that requires you to need to know who made how much money..

I'm guessing you never watched the PGA either. I don't think being called a "fanboy" relates to someone being interested in how much the pros made for playing, winning, placing, in a tournament. I think the interest just comes naturally with being a legit fan of pro disc golf.

 

[the_lung]

I guess I am operating under the assumption that, like all tournaments, this was already decided, posted and completed. Posting to the PDGA website is simply public documentation. Maybe I am wrong.

That would be incorrect, sir.

The PDGA results page is the ONLY place where the final payouts are posted. They are not available on any Udisc, Facebook, or other web site.

And it's such poor form that it takes until the next morning for players and spectators to see the payouts. For comparison, the payouts for the GMC DGPT event the previous weekend were available within 30 minutes of the last putt falling for each division.

 

[ru4por]

That would be incorrect, sir.

The PDGA results page is the ONLY place where the final payouts are posted. They are not available on any Udisc, Facebook, or other web site.

And it's such poor form that it takes until the next morning for players and spectators to see the payouts. For comparison, the payouts for the GMC DGPT event the previous weekend were available within 30 minutes of the last putt falling for each division.

In sanctioned events, we have always published payouts at tournament central, striving to make them available by the break. Perhaps that is not normal above the A Tier level. We also provide for payouts once any division is completed. This is pretty standard tournament practice around here.

If players are waiting for 24 hours or more for payouts, agree, it is bad practice. If fans have to wait to see how much their favorite player made, I am not interested in commenting on the work of the TD, staff and volunteers. As a fan, I am not that important to the process.

 

[biscoe]

Aren't payouts required to be posted (onsite) prior to the last round? Or is that a vestige of an ancient time just lingering in my feeble mind?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Aren't payouts required to be posted (onsite) prior to the last round? Or is that a vestige of an ancient time just lingering in my feeble mind?

https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/110

1.10.D from the Comp Manual...

D.Events with more than two rounds must post payout (including all added cash) prior to the start of the last round.

 

[ru4por]

https://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/110

So, the angst is not about players not receiving payouts, in a timely fashion. It is not about players not knowing the payout structure, in a timely fashion. It is indeed that a few fans are disgruntled about not knowing individual payouts, to players, they likely don't even know.

As a volunteer and club member, putting on several sanctioned tournaments a year, i can attest that there is a LOT of work to do after a tournament that takes precedent over posting payouts for fans. Like......

Actual payouts
CTP's (often involving someone running out to the forgotten hole to collect a flag)
Ace pool throw off/payout
Side games
Raffles
Card collection
Score re-addition
Score posting
Dispute resolution
Lost and found
Trophy and placement presentations
Tear down of feather flags, banners, tents, tables, course signage, OB string, practice baskets, club disc inventory from am payouts, cash box, TD box, garbage patrol and pick up....
Generally a quick meeting with park administrators and/or security
Pack all of the above into cars
Travel to the club storage units
Unpack cars and reorganize storage units to be ready for the next tournament
Dinner for the 4 volunteers that did all of the above work (really twice, because they all got there at 5:30 AM to do set up, as well)

This was a quick list, I am sure I forgot some tasks. I get where posting payouts for fan curiosity, could be outside this list of priorities. I am not saying it should not be done, I am saying it just seems entitled, for folks to expect it be done tournament night or to their convenience. I suggest good tournaments make players happy, not distant followers of a player. Just my opinion.

 

[glassila]

1.10.D from the Comp Manual...
D.Events with more than two rounds must post payout (including all added cash) prior to the start of the last round.

It states that the event must post the payouts, that doesn't mean they have to post them on the PDGA website.
I'd be willing to bet that the payouts were printed out and posted at the event.
Like ru4por said, TDs have tons of stuff to do. (posting the payouts for the general public to see is probably low on their priority list)

 

[brutalbrutus]

Doesn't take very long. All they have to do is figure out which pay table they're going to use beforehand and print out a copy. Then just write on it the total payout for each division and hang it on the board for people to see when they come get their hole assignment. Some of the events I've played did it this way. Saves them the hassle of doing the math for each place on the day, while also giving the players the percentage breakdown instead of just the actual payout each place would receive.

 

[John Rock]

Who all was involved in scoring and getting stuff posted to pDGA website at GMC?

 

[brutalbrutus]

Doesn't take very long. All they have to do is figure out which pay table they're going to use beforehand and print out a copy. Then just write on it the total payout for each division and hang it on the board for people to see when they come get their hole assignment. Some of the events I've played did it this way. Saves them the hassle of doing the math for each place on the day, while also giving the players the percentage breakdown instead of just the actual payout each place would receive.

I guess i should say it saves them the hassle of doing it during lunch if they are also playing the event.